Do we needs smaller bees?

[Finman]

This is interesting. From Michael Bush's site.

Natural Cell Size and it's implications to beekeeping and Varroa mites http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

That is interesting but universties of Michael BUsh country have studied that small cell does not protect bees against mite.

USA has huge problems with varroa even if several guys say that they have revieled the problem.

- Why they do not use them widely
- Why they have 30% winter losses and they say that varroa is the worst




''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Winter losses USA
April 25, 2012

Dennis vanEngelsdorp1, Jeffery Pettis2, Karen Rennich1, , Robyn Rose3 , Dewey Caron4, Keith S. Delaplane5, James T. Wilkes6, Eugene J. Lengerich7, Kathy Baylis8, and the Bee Informed Partnership.



Preliminary survey results indicate that

21.9% of managed honey bee colonies in the United States were lost during the 2011/2012 winter.
30% total colony loss in the winters of 2010/2011,
34% in 2009/2010,
29% in 2008/2009,
36% in 2007/2008, and
32% in 2006/2007.

.

 

[Chris Ibbo]

Beejoyful, you are an absolute star! I think these guys are on to something that we need to take notice of. I may complete my first year on the foundation I already have and next year regress bees in one apiary to the 4.9 mm foundation and see what happens without varroa treatment (Except for dusting of course). I will start with just a couple colonies and if they look after themselves then I can say it really works. If not ill have to fall back on good old apiguard and oxalic acid.

 

[Finman]

.

Small-cell comb foundation does not impede Varroa mite
population growth in honey bee colonies*


Jennifer A. Berry1, William B. Owens2, Keith S. Delaplane1
1 Department of Entomology, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602, USA
2 Owens Apiaries, 4510 Springwood Drive, Monroe, GA 30655, USA
Received 1 October 2008 – Revised 23 March 2009 – Accepted 27 April 2009


Abstract – In three independently replicated field studies, we compared biometrics of Varroa mite and honey bee populations in bee colonies housed on one of two brood cell types: small-cell (4.9 ± 0.08 mm cell
width, walls inclusive) or conventional-cell (5.3 ± 0.04). In one of the studies, ending colony bee population
was significantly higher in small-cell colonies (14994 ± 2494 bees) than conventional-cell (5653 ± 1082).

However, small-cell colonies were significantly higher for mite population in brood (359.7 ± 87.4 vs.
134.5 ± 38.7), percentage of mite population in brood (49.4 ± 7.1 vs. 26.8 ± 6.7), and mites per 100 adult
bees (5.1 ± 0.9 vs. 3.3 ± 0.5). With the three remaining ending Varroa population metrics, mean trends
for small-cell were unfavorable.

We conclude that small-cell comb technology does not impede Varroa
population growth.

 

[Finman]

.
The efficacy of small cell foundation as a varroa mite (Varroa destructor) control."
Ellis AM, Hayes GW, Ellis JD.
Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, Division of Plant Industry, Bureau of Plant and Apiary Inspection, Apiary Inspection Section, 1911 SW 34th St., Gainesville, FL, 32614-7100, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
"Due to a continuing shift toward reducing/minimizing the use of chemicals in honey bee colonies, we explored the possibility of using small cell foundation as a varroa control. Based on the number of anecdotal reports supporting small cell as an efficacious varroa control tool, we hypothesized that bee colonies housed on combs constructed on small cell foundation would have lower varroa populations and higher adult bee populations and more cm(2) brood.
To summarize our results, we found that the use of small cell foundation did not significantly affect cm(2) total brood, total mites per colony, mites per brood cell, or mites per adult bee, but did affect adult bee population for two sampling months. Varroa levels were similar in all colonies throughout the study.

We found no evidence that small cell foundation was beneficial with regard to varroa control under the tested conditions in Florida."
From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19067184

 

[Chris Ibbo]

Hey Finman, did you actually read tge whole thing and watch tge youtube translation of tge seminar the guy did? The site mentions that the honey producers using their method produce on average just over 40 kg per hive over tge last few years and name the bee keepers. Also this small bee method isn't just about having small cells. They also do the same as everyone else who is trying to get hygienic bees. No chemicals, no acids, dusting to promote grooming and with the reduced cell size that is about the original size bees used to have naturally they are finding the survival rate of the colonies much higher. It's all about how the reduced cell size reduces incubation time and selective breeding promotes hygienic behaviour. I don't know if these people are the real deal but they seem to have a lot of people that can prove it works. I want people to show me it doesn't. Have you tried it yourself?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Hello,
I tried it - even bought a mill to make my own small cell foundation. It did not work for us!
Best wishes
Norton.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2766&highlight=small+cell+Norton

 

[Into the lions den]

Beejoyful, you are an absolute star! I think these guys are on to something that we need to take notice of. I may complete my first year on the foundation I already have and next year regress bees in one apiary to the 4.9 mm foundation and see what happens without varroa treatment (Except for dusting of course). I will start with just a couple colonies and if they look after themselves then I can say it really works. If not ill have to fall back on good old apiguard and oxalic acid.

This does not work, and is only of any use for Africanised bees, for which it is the natural cell size. Hence the claims from Arizona.

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi MasterBK, I think you hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. These are my thoughts exactly on why the smaller bee method is successful. I just need more people to reinforce what this guy is saying and produce more evidence closer to home. Which is why I asked if anyone on here uses 4.9 mm foundation to see what they have found with their bees.

No experience with the foundation but I run my hives foundationless so letting the bees build whatever they want and size providing its within a frame. I converted to foundationless frames last year after a couple of years experimenting.

I was warned that I was going to produce a Varroa factory given the high percentage of drone comb but so far I have not found this to be the case and time will show.

I also have a TBH and this is its 2nd winter and went into it reasonably strong and still from what can be gained from the inspection board is ok. This hive has had no treatments apart from a token thymol treatment in September crudely placed at one end of the hive and probably was ineffective. I expected a high Varroa load last summer as it was not treated the previous year but could not find any evidence.

I don’t make any claim regarding Varroa they are there and in time may become a problem, I treat my framed hives but the TBH is interesting and if I dont get a problem this year???.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Beejoyful, you are an absolute star!

You might take the star away if you read a bit more.

Stuff on Dave Cushman's site
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cellregression.html

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/trial-of-honeysupercell-small-cell-combs/

This does not work, and is only of any use for Africanised bees, for which it is the natural cell size. Hence the claims from Arizona.

quote from the above link :-
There has been considerable discussion as to whether “small cell” foundation (4.9mm diameter vs. the industry “standard” of approximately 5.4mm) has potential as a means of controlling varroa reproduction. Research on Africanized bees in South America indicates that small cell size may reduce mite reproduction, yet data from South Africa and Europe have been equivocal, or demonstrated just the opposite.

 

[REDWOOD]

Anacdottaly, the feral bees in a chimney ,near some of my hives,are smaller due to old comb and seem to survive year to year However newly swarmed feral bees from the same chimney are much larger as on new comb but the new swarm colonies die out within a year

Now that was used by a Beekeeper who has a low management approach to support the theory that small cell/bees reduce Varroa infection.

I can see his logic but, to me the survival rate of the chimney bees is more likely to be due the swarm breaks in the varroa cycle and exporting varroa load and the failures due the lack of stores by the small non viable feral colonies rather than size of cell

Very True old comb produces small bees as the older the comb the smaller the cells become, I don't know the reason why probably the bees adding a bit more wax after cleaning ?

 

[Finman]

Very True old comb produces small bees as the older the comb the smaller the cells become, I don't know the reason why probably the bees adding a bit more wax after cleaning ?

When a larva becomes a pupa, it makes a silk layer into the cell. Those silk layes fill old cells and along time bees chew old cells off and build new combs.

 

[REDWOOD]

When a larva becomes a pupa, it makes a silk layer into the cell. Those silk layes fill old cells and along time bees chew old cells off and build new combs.

Thanks for the explanation finman, I remember now

 

[Into the lions den]

Very True old comb produces small bees as the older the comb the smaller the cells become, I don't know the reason why probably the bees adding a bit more wax after cleaning ?

I am quite sure this is a myth, like lots of the stuff in bees, if its repeated often enough it gets accepted as a fact.

It is REPUTED to be coccoon build up in the cells, but as far as we can see the bees do a good clean out every spring, and the deposits of brown dust outside during the major spring clean testify to this.

Also, if you use white plastic foundation, by late season it is black with coccoons, but by first egg lay in sring the cell bottoms are often translucent again. This supports the idea that the big clean out is a once a season thing.

Also, prior to the purchase of a new extractor that trashed or rendered obsolete the frame pattern involved, we had a number of brood combs in service that had an odd structure and foundation type (see the Dave Cushman archive, as it is mentioned there), and these were subsequenty identified in conjunction with Dave to be something like 70......yes 70.......years old. Some of my fathers brood combs from the 1950s were still in service at the time too. No noticeable reduction in cell size even at extreme age. Comb as tough as if it were a cardboard box, but every spring there was the muck out, and the bees were completely normal.

Not my initial observation either. I understand the myth was outed more than 60 years ago. I do not have a copy to hand, but I understand Wedmore first tackled this matter before I was born.

As Finman has pointed out, in exceptional cases the bees rip the comb down to the midrib themselves and rebuild.

Its academic now for us as we have changed our brood comb management radically in the wake of the Scottish EFB outbreak and no comb lasts 5 seasons, so spring clean out will not be massive.

 

[Norton]

Hence the claims from Arizona.

A couple of pot smoking hippies!

 

[beebopalula]

I always enjoy and value your posts ITLD because they offer a wealth of information and detail only available to those with a very large number of hives and more importantly, experience (including through generations), that few hobbyist beekeepers can hope to equal.

Even so, I do not trust Pestco.

 

[REDWOOD]

Thanks ITLD you are now the beekeeping forums very own myth buster any more I should know about ?

 

[Into the lions den]

Even so, I do not trust Pestco.

lol............neither do I!! But, with many issues the activists have no burden of proof on them, and can make all the allegations they like and will get an audience.

I just want the truth, and do not actually trust either side.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks ITLD you are now the beekeeping forums very own myth buster any more I should know about ?

There is no tooth fairy

 

[Into the lions den]

Thanks ITLD you are now the beekeeping forums very own myth buster any more I should know about ?

Oh there are lots!

 

[REDWOOD]

Oh there are lots!

Anything to do with a R in the month ?