Do we needs smaller bees?

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Chris Ibbo

New Bee
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
66
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Location
Kettering
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
8 colonies
I have just spent half of my evening where I should've been a sleep reading from this site; http://resistantbees.com/. Are small bees something we should be going back too? Thanks for your responses.
 
I have just spent half of my evening where I should've been a sleep reading from this site; http://resistantbees.com/. Are small bees something we should be going back too? Thanks for your responses.


That writing has not much value. The tex is full of mistakes.

The start "The current situation of the bees has reached a very alarming state." - It has not. Honey bee has 32 diseases and pests.

Good heavens............but nice web page.
 
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There is no animal in nature that kills its host, as it would destroy its chances for survival. The Varroa does. Why?

Varroa doesn't kill them do they? I was under the impressions it's the diseases the mites carry. Parasites have no problem killing their host, it's not a symbiotic relationship.
 
Varroa doesn't kill them do they? I was under the impressions it's the diseases the mites carry. Parasites have no problem killing their host, it's not a symbiotic relationship.

It is not in the interest of parasites to kill their host unless they have an assure reproduction route. Viruses on the other hand aren't that clever and varroa, nosema and acarine are all associated with viruses.
 
If not symbiotic, then what is it?
Varroa is species specific,ergo it depends on the.
Survival of its host!
It's a poor parasite that kills it's host !
VM
 
Sorry Susie, we hit the send button simultaneously. :D
VM
 
Some virus code in their DNA to cause host to live longer... silencing the compounds that cause natural death..

... when I got to the beet sugar / pesticide/make your own sprinkles, the pages some how became reminiscent of some of the rantings from the "Beeminders" that occasionally infest this forum.... and for me suddenly lost all credibility.

Question , if smaller bees do not suffer from varroa, why then are top bar hives and itinerant ( so called feral) colonies suffering from the mite?
Natural bees can shirley make cells to any size and pattern they wish?

Not wishing for fishy comments but....

C O D S W A L L O P !

IMOVLE of course!
 
Some virus code in their DNA to cause host to live longer... silencing the compounds that cause natural death..

... when I got to the beet sugar / pesticide/make your own sprinkles, the pages some how became reminiscent of some of the rantings from the "Beeminders" that occasionally infest this forum.... and for me suddenly lost all credibility.

Question , if smaller bees do not suffer from varroa, why then are top bar hives and itinerant ( so called feral) colonies suffering from the mite?
Natural bees can shirley make cells to any size and pattern they wish?

Not wishing for fishy comments but....

C O D S W A L L O P !

IMOVLE of course!

Anacdottaly, the feral bees in a chimney ,near some of my hives,are smaller due to old comb and seem to survive year to year However newly swarmed feral bees from the same chimney are much larger as on new comb but the new swarm colonies die out within a year

Now that was used by a Beekeeper who has a low management approach to support the theory that small cell/bees reduce Varroa infection.

I can see his logic but, to me the survival rate of the chimney bees is more likely to be due the swarm breaks in the varroa cycle and exporting varroa load and the failures due the lack of stores by the small non viable feral colonies rather than size of cell
 
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Feral colonies build new and abandon old comb,bees pass through a wax building stage in their passage through life!
It would follow that they would naturally regress the cell size rather that rear brood in old comb!
I'm not convinced that cell sizes presented in foundation result in larger bees ? Her Madge lays drone eggs in drone cells!
Bees alter previously drawn comb to suit their own agenda!
VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Anacdottaly, the feral bees in a chimney ,near some of my hives,are smaller due to old comb and seem to survive year to year However newly swarmed feral bees from the same chimney are much larger as on new comb but the new swarm colonies die out within a year

Now that was used by a Beekeeper who has a low management approach to support the theory that small cell/bees reduce Varroa infection.

I can see his logic but, to me the survival rate of the chimney bees is more likely to be due the swarm breaks in the varroa cycle and exporting varroa load and the failures due the lack of stores by the small non viable feral colonies rather than size of cell

You have to take into account the "treatment" chimney bees receive from soot and the combustion products in the chimney..


Now I have TBHs - with two hives on their thrid season and they still have varroa..


Not many last year - but I have no idea why and the strange weather with brood breaks may have had an impact...

Are my bees smaller? Dunno. Look the same size as other bees kept in nationals..
 
Anacdottaly, the feral bees in a chimney ,near some of my hives,are smaller due to old comb and seem to survive year to year However newly swarmed feral bees from the same chimney are much larger as on new comb but the new swarm colonies die out within a year

Now that was used by a Beekeeper who has a low management approach to support the theory that small cell/bees reduce Varroa infection.

I can see his logic but, to me the survival rate of the chimney bees is more likely to be due the swarm breaks in the varroa cycle and exporting varroa load and the failures due the lack of stores by the small non viable feral colonies rather than size of cell

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21764

This chap mentions giving a break in the varroa mite cycle by raising queens later in the year, and then overwintering.
Perhaps buying a box of bees with an imported queen to replace bees in the catch and release system allows for a build up of varroa throughout the summer, and without autumn treatment the bees die out.
A good enough reason to keep bees in ... how can I put this... normal beehives?... and to have an pest management system in place ( not icing sugar!)

OMG:nono: I've gone and done it now!!!:ohthedrama:
 
I think the people on this site are trying to say its not just the bees being small that helps! Keeping them chemical free and selective breeding is a must in varroa control. I would like to know if we really have increased the size of our bees by giving them larger cells on foundation?
 
I think the people on this site are trying to say its not just the bees being small that helps! Keeping them chemical free and selective breeding is a must in varroa control. I would like to know if we really have increased the size of our bees by giving them larger cells on foundation?

All domecticated animals use to be bigger than their anchestors in nature. It is a result of human selection.

BUT that thing has been discussed as long as varroa has been in honeybee, and this discussion has not helped.

It use to be so that in north animals are bigger than in south. It gives advantage in cold climate.

Russian bees have brought to USA from Siberia. Russian keep in Siberia the biggest foundation standard what I have met. It is 5,6 mm. Nature lovers say that small cells are 4,8 mm. Carniolan has biggest cell size.

When my bees make wild combs, the measure is 5,3 mm. It is same as foundation.

And we know well, that mite killed first natural comb colonies. It does not protect bees.


But these dreaming discussion have been went through every year.

.
 
Some virus code in their DNA to cause host to live longer... silencing the compounds that cause natural death..

... when I got to the beet sugar / pesticide/make your own sprinkles, the pages some how became reminiscent of some of the rantings from the "Beeminders" that occasionally infest this forum.... and for me suddenly lost all credibility.

Question , if smaller bees do not suffer from varroa, why then are top bar hives and itinerant ( so called feral) colonies suffering from the mite?
Natural bees can shirley make cells to any size and pattern they wish?

Not wishing for fishy comments but....

C O D S W A L L O P !

IMOVLE of course!

Hi Icanhopit, it think from reading their info the problem with bees today in the uk and the rest of europe is that we have had 100 years of rearing "big" bees that don't necessarily look after them selves as best they could. The varroa mite originally live on smaller bees with quicker brood rearing and mainly the varroa developing in the drone cells in harmony. So their point is get our bees back to a small size, have healthier stronger bees because we are not pumping them with chemicals and then work on breading in the clean behaviour which is there from the best hives. Also most of the people that have stopped using chemicals and acids to find the "clean bees" have started with 100, 200 colonies and lost most of them in the process. The small bee way however seems to eliminate that loss.
 
Does anyone on here have 4.9mm foundation? Do you have anything to add to this on how your bees are doing with varroa?
 
Most parasites (and that includes viruses and other pathogens) that cross to another species often do cause severe effects to their hosts initially. Natural selection will of course operate and eventually we can expect some sort of balance between numbers and the effects of the parasite on the host. What we don't know is how long this will take naturally with Varroa and Apis mellifera and how fast bee breeders can speed up this process.

Because the life cycle of the mite is much shorter than the replacement cycle of a queen bee in a colony it is most likely that the Varroa will adapt to the bee much quicker than the bee adapts to deal with the mite (even taking into account that a brother mite breeds with its sisters which limits genetic diversity somewhat). I expect that with time the effect of the Varroa and the viruses it carries will moderate as there must be a selective advantage in not causing the total destruction of the host colony.

Apart from hygienic behaviour , longer brood gaps in winter and due to swarming, I suggest that there would be an advantage to the honeybee if there was a shortening of the time the bee spends sealed in the cell restricting the reproductive success of the mite rather than a reduction of the cell size (although the two may be linked)
 
All domecticated animals use to be bigger than their anchestors in nature. It is a result of human selection.

BUT that thing has been discussed as long as varroa has been in honeybee, and this discussion has not helped.

It use to be so that in north animals are bigger than in south. It gives advantage in cold climate.

Russian bees have brought to USA from Siberia. Russian keep in Siberia the biggest foundation standard what I have met. It is 5,6 mm. Nature lovers say that small cells are 4,8 mm. Carniolan has biggest cell size.

When my bees make wild combs, the measure is 5,3 mm. It is same as foundation.

And we know well, that mite killed first natural comb colonies. It does not protect bees.


But these dreaming discussion have been went through every year.

.

Hi Finman, you are defo right different bees make different sized comb, ferral, wild and every different strain of bee. There are also different levels of hygienic behaviour within those different bees. Like i said ealier though to get the hygienic behaviour that we need in our bees with out the use of chemicals and acids a lot have to die first to find the bee colonies that we want to breed from and as well we need a very large isolated area. This is impossible for just about all bee keepers. BUT, if this guy is right in saying that the smaller bees deal better and use their hygienic behaviour more because they are small and aren't being covered with acid and chemicals then we are on to a winner. Its easy to dismiss this guys as the usual nutter but someone has to try these things and test them, which he appears to have done.
 
Most parasites (and that includes viruses and other pathogens) that cross to another species often do cause severe effects to their hosts initially. Natural selection will of course operate and eventually we can expect some sort of balance between numbers and the effects of the parasite on the host. What we don't know is how long this will take naturally with Varroa and Apis mellifera and how fast bee breeders can speed up this process.

Because the life cycle of the mite is much shorter than the replacement cycle of a queen bee in a colony it is most likely that the Varroa will adapt to the bee much quicker than the bee adapts to deal with the mite (even taking into account that a brother mite breeds with its sisters which limits genetic diversity somewhat). I expect that with time the effect of the Varroa and the viruses it carries will moderate as there must be a selective advantage in not causing the total destruction of the host colony.

Apart from hygienic behaviour , longer brood gaps in winter and due to swarming, I suggest that there would be an advantage to the honeybee if there was a shortening of the time the bee spends sealed in the cell restricting the reproductive success of the mite rather than a reduction of the cell size (although the two may be linked)

Hi MasterBK, I think you hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. These are my thoughts exactly on why the smaller bee method is successful. I just need more people to reinforce what this guy is saying and produce more evidence closer to home. Which is why I asked if anyone on here uses 4.9 mm foundation to see what they have found with their bees.
 
BUT, if this guy is right in saying that the smaller bees deal better and use their hygienic behaviour more because they are e.

Yes, he says IF. I have nursed bees so long that I know that IF word saves nothing.

Those diseases are honey bee specifivc and they has been on earth longer than humans. For example honey bee has developed in Africa and its numerous races are totally there wild creatures. They have same diseases and pests like nursed bees.

Small combs, natural combs, top bars.... all those are adults dream that nature has something special and human has only spoiled the whole system.

This is religion and no one can win these guys in debating.

When I ask from these guys, how much they harvest honey from they hives, answer is "honey, what honey?". They love bees and do not take honey from hives.



With false knowledge you can do only false decisions. But fortunately bees stand many kind of dreamers.

.
 
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