Do I have a mated queen ?

[Little John]

Thought I'd start a new thread on this, rather than hijack someone else's ...

Earlier today I posted:

After a long fruitless search for a British mated queen - the nearest I got was a 'take a chance virgin' - so I finally relented and bought an imported Carnie.

But what a disappointment - for the priviledge of being £40 lighter, I've received this morning the smallest queen I've ever seen: if it wasn't for the coloured spot on her thorax, she'd be indistinguishable from her entourage. This girl would have absolutely no trouble getting through a queen excluder.

Have I been ripped-off ? Maybe. Could be the runt of the litter, could even be a virgin - who knows ? I certainly don't have too much faith in this one.

Still, I'll give her a chance, and buy a couple of those 'take a chance virgins' as well - 'cause the year is moving on apace ...

And Hivemaker kindly replied:

She will get bigger again when being fed for laying, caged queens are no longer in lay (similar to a mated queen in swarming mode) so are not being fed to do so, they lose weight rapidly when caged...even for one day,

Now I very much appreciate the reassurance, but I'm still not 100% convinced, as I placed this 'queen' (still in her mailing box) into 2 different queenless NUCs - and not a single bee showed any interest - even after 20 minutes. Also the the queen's 'companion' bees are not fussing over her, and I've seen her feeding herself with candy - ok, perhaps that's not in itself uber-significant, but put all these observations together, and I'm wondering if my concern is justified ?

I'm also mindful that I've never bought a postal queen before and so have nothing to make a direct comparison with.

LJ

 

[IBeeHere]

Can you post a photo so the more experienced beekepers can see and make a judgement. I purchased 2 queens "buckfast type" this year and thought they were quite small, but after a week they were laying and one of them now is now very productive.

 

[Little John]

I would if I could, but unfortunately I can't take a photo without taking the queen of the mailing box - I've tried taking photos through perspex before and for some strange reason the camera (a cheap Kodak) doesn't play ball.

But apart from appearance - wouldn't you have expected some interest from other bees, especially those made queenless earlier today ?

'best
LJ

 

[beeno]

Hi LJ,
I have only seen the sized queen you are referring to once. Not surprisingly she is laying in the super (not mine), but she is being superceded PDQ. Maybe she is a virgin if they don't pay her any attention? You have put me right off buying queens! Not too late in the season to get your own mated IMHO.

 

[Little John]

You have put me right off buying queens! Not too late in the season to get your own mated IMHO.

Well, even my virgins attract a good dozen or so 'groupies'.

I really thought I was being smart, buying in a blood-line which is both docile and (more importantly for the NUC production I have in mind) not prone to robbing.

Of course, the problem could be something simple - like the pheromone drying up as well as the eggs. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but I'd put such a lot of faith in this purchase.

My own virgins are to be released tonight after 3 days of confinement - the weather is forecast as good for the next few days, so yes - maybe they'll 'get lucky'. Great pity they aren't a particularly good carnie-cross though ...

LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As HM said in the other thread - when they are in the post they lose weight quickly - had four British bred queens sent to me this year and I had to struggle to distinguish her from her entourage in the cage (I put the whole lot in the hive so never actually open the introduction cage when they arrive) distinctly small- a month or so later - we were marking them Saturday and they are mahoosive, biggest queens I've seen!
The fact they are showing no interest at the moment is neither here nor there. They have only just been made queenless so are a bit confused. Justclose up and leave them to it!

 

[Finman]

.
I took 15 queens from my balance hive. Part of them seemed very small. I thought that should I throw the smallest away. ´

But now when thay have layed 3 weeks and first workers emerge, I cannot believe my eyes. Brood pattern is good and they have filled they hives very well with brood. Abdomens are like earth worms.

Another thing is, with whom they have mated. What are their drone genes?

They have mated in 4 yeards. This is way how I avoid inbreeding. Too much virgins from one hiove but drones are from different places.

Good thing in balance hive was that it stored pollen very well in last summer and this summer. With that it got a good start in spring brooding.

 

[Tom Bick]

It can be a shock at first to see the size of the queens when you first receive them especially if they have travelled far but as with the others they soon become big big big.

Did you ask the forum for a supplier of uk bred queens as I bet you would have had several suggestions and Hivemaker may well have been top of the list. Also a google search brings up a good few uk suppliers.

There is also a chance that a bought in queen is no good its a chance we take and a good supplier will know this and react accordingly.

Introduce her she may serve you well but watch out for swarming next year.

 

[Little John]

The fact they are showing no interest at the moment is neither here nor there. They have only just been made queenless so are a bit confused.

I emailed the supplier, describing my observations - they share my concerns about the lack of interest shown by both queenless bees and the 'companion' bees, and have offered a replacement.

LJ

 

[Bates]

As most people are stating when the queens are in cages for periods of time they do shrink when they aren't laying. You will soon see an increase in size, did you removed the escort workers before introducing her? Just because they have not shown interest does not mean she is a virgin. Your replacement may be the same story.

 

[Little John]

Just because they have not shown interest ....

The fact they are showing no interest at the moment is neither here nor there.

Seems there's a lot of 'experts' on queen introduction behaviour on this forum ...

From the supplier's email:

"Why your bees did not fuss around the new queen I don't know as I would expect any queen near a hive whether it was queenless or not should be fussed over, equally I would expect bees to fuss over a cage containing any bees that were not from their hive."

Those expectations were also my own. As the supplier and I shared the same concerns, a replacement mated queen was offered.

I don't think there's anything more I can usefully add to this.

LJ

 

[Little John]

Did you ask the forum for a supplier of uk bred queens as I bet you would have had several suggestions and Hivemaker may well have been top of the list.

Many years ago, a friend asked me if I knew of any old cars for sale, and I mentioned that a relative was selling a aged mini (that tells you how long ago it was ... ). This friend duly bought the car on the false assumption that I had 'recommended' it, which I hadn't - I'd merely put a buyer and seller in contact with each other.
Later, the car developed problems, as aged cars are prone to do, and a lot of ill-feeling between this friend and myself ensued. Since that time I have made it my firm policy not to be involved with friends or acquaintances in the purchasing or selling of anything with significant value, or anything of importance to me which may later encounter unforseen problems, especially those with the potential for substantially important consequences - such as computer data storage, or breeding stock.
So in order to avoid the possibility of any ill-feeling occurring, I would not normally trade with anyone from this forum.

Also a google search brings up a good few uk suppliers.

It may well do - but does it bring up any uk suppliers with any stock still to sell ? For that's what's important. And I doubt that you'll find any. The best I could find was virgins.

And that, of course, is why people reluctantly continue to import queens.

There is also a chance that a bought in queen is no good its a chance we take and a good supplier will know this and react accordingly.

Indeed, and so they have. Their integrity remains intact.

LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well, that's telling us then - if you have no confidencde in what people on the forum say why bother asking in the first place.
If you would have asked on the forum people could have directed you to suppliers of good reputation which you could have contacted - that's not trading with people on the forum, it's making good use of resources.
Of the queens I put in this year none of the bees 'made a fuss' of the queen when first put in (a few days later, yes).

I really thought I was being smart,

Next time you have a question, let us know the answer you want in advance 0 save us a lot of bother

 

[Little John]

Well, that's telling us then - if you have no confidencde in what people on the forum say why bother asking in the first place.

I had no confidence in what you said - others were less dismissive.

Originally Posted by Little John: I really thought I was being smart,

Next time you have a question, let us know the answer you want in advance - save us a lot of bother

Again, you appear to speaking for the whole forum.

And your quote is taken completely out of context - very bad form - as is the sarcasm.

LJ

 

[beeno]

Hi LJ,
Level headed as always. Thanks for not letting the exception become the norm. We will all be 'Waiting for Godot' soon!