Difficulty spotting early signs of Queen Cells

[Eddie_H]

Lost two swarms this season. I always check every 7 days, have unclipped queen.

Upon inspection I swore there was no sign of Queen cells, but on next inspection they are sealed and queen gone. It's the queen cells on the face of the comb (obviously around 1 or 2 days old) Im obviously having difficulty spotting. and it's so frustrating returning to find queen has swarmed.

Other than a planned clipping of Queen... any tips?

 

[Brigsy]

How much moving around of the bees do you do on the frames where they are densely packed? They can hide them easily on the face of busy combs. Or hide them down the gaps in the sides.

 

[enrico]

Don't eat bananas, give your mouth a swill with mint mouthwash. When inspecting, if you have any comb they you cant see, gently blow on the area and the bees will move out of the way. It lets you see the face of the comb.
Otherwise a gentle shake of each frame as you take it out will drop some bees off but they don't like that as much!
E

 

[Beefriendly]

... any tips?

It's not your fault, it's the bees.
They go from egg to sealed queen cell in 6 days. You might see nothing on inspection and then bingo 7 days later sealed cells. All perfectly normal developmental time scale.
Only tip I can give you is look in the queen cups for eggs on inspection....if you see them it usually (not always) means you need to be back in 3-5 days not 7. It's why I try to schedule 5/6 day inspection intervals...but can't always manage this and still get caught out.
Whoever said 7 days was the ideal time interval to prevent swarming was probably a weekend beekeeper.
The frequency that this happens makes you wonder if the inspection is the trigger for swarming,,,,bugger this invasion of our privacy we are off.....

 

[Swarm]

And they are in 'cups' not in cells so you should still see them. They may not like it but shaking the frame clear of bees allows you to see what's going on and their behaviour should tell you when to start being thorough.

 

[Dadnlad]

Don't eat bananas, give your mouth a swill with mint mouthwash. When inspecting, if you have any comb they you cant see, gently blow on the area and the bees will move out of the way. It lets you see the face of the comb.
Otherwise a gentle shake of each frame as you take it out will drop some bees off but they don't like that as much!
E

Haha likewise, I usually stop off for a packet of extra strong mints on the way to inspect

 

[Dadnlad]

I'm a weekend beekeeper with a 7 day inspection routine, with plenty of other commitments - I have lost a decent queen this spring the same way you describe, sometimes you have to just suck it up

Her daughters are doing fine btw

 

[Eddie_H]

How much moving around of the bees do you do on the frames where they are densely packed? They can hide them easily on the face of busy combs. Or hide them down the gaps in the sides.

Yes I'd always try to give them a gentle blow in order to see all of the comb

 

[Erichalfbee]

Five day inspections are the only way sometimes

 

[Eddie_H]

And they are in 'cups' not in cells so you should still see them. They may not like it but shaking the frame clear of bees allows you to see what's going on and their behaviour should tell you when to start being thorough.

All have been in cells. There can be cups on bottom of frames but usually no eggs. They are easily spotted. It's just the cells that become queen cells on the comb that is hard to spot

 

[Eddie_H]

Five day inspections are the only way sometimes

I'm beginning to think that too.

 

[Eddie_H]

What's the thinking on clipped queens and the extra days leeway before she swarms (or tries to, anyway)?

I was told - clipped Q leaves day 9, day after sealing
Unclipped Q theoretically day 15, day before new Q emerges

How accurate is that though?

 

[Beefriendly]

What's the thinking on clipped queens and the extra days leeway before she swarms (or tries to, anyway)?

She will still attempt to swarm as the first queen cells are sealed (6 days). But as she can't fly you don't lose half your workforce. Sometimes she falls to ground and dies, sometimes she crawls under floor and you find a pile of bees there, sometimes she crawls back into hive. Generally the workforce return, disgruntled, to hive.
Twice this year on 6 day inspection intervals I found hives swarming (damn those F2's). Recovered queen from ground on both occasions.

 

[Beefriendly]

clipped Q leaves day 9, day after sealing
/QUOTE]

Eddie as I've already explained it's only 6 days from egg hatching to queen cell being sealed, where on earth do you get the 9 days from?

 

[Millet]

clipped Q leaves day 9, day after sealing
/QUOTE]

Eddie as I've already explained it's only 6 days from egg hatching to queen cell being sealed, where on earth do you get the 9 days from?

I think he means the original old Queen leaves at nine days.

 

[Eddie_H]

clipped Q leaves day 9, day after sealing
/QUOTE]

Eddie as I've already explained it's only 6 days from egg hatching to queen cell being sealed, where on earth do you get the 9 days from?

Egg laid day 1, sealed on day 8, Q swarms on day 9

 

[Beefriendly]

Egg laid day 1, sealed on day 8, Q swarms on day 9

Sealed on day 9..but minor issue.......Important bit is eggs hatch on day 3-so time from egg hatching to a sealed queen cell is 6 days. I think it's best to ignore the egg timing bit and concentrate on the larvae development timing of 6 days. If you find no developing queen cells you have no way of knowing what is going on 6 days ahead...unless you find eggs in queen cups which will give you a hint or developing open queen cells that are not sealed which is a big clue.

 

[Magwat]

Unclipped Q theoretically day 15, day before new Q emerges

???? Clipped or unclipped they go when the cell is sealed.
I wish it was day 15. One of mine has disappeared with just one newly charged queen cell in the hive - so day 1 or 2 from egg hatching.

 

[Beefriendly]

One of mine has disappeared with just one newly charged queen cell in the hive - so day 1 or 2 from egg hatching.

I'd have a more careful look...and I'll bet you find a sealed one you missed.
It's no shame... we all miss them. Apart from the perfect beekeepers on this forum.,

 

[Walrus]

There is a massive difference between a clipped queen and unclipped. With a clipped queen if you leave a hive with no cells in it of any type after inspection then you have at least 15-16 days before you can lose a swarm. If you leave a hive with unsealed QCs after inspection then you still have at least 8-9 days before you can lose a swarm. You probably have longer as I'm not sure a newly emerged queen is ready to fly off straight away. However, chances are you will lose the clipped queen and you still have to deal with the situation with some form of swarm control.

I don't usually clip queens, despite this, and if I keep losing swarms I re-queen with one from better stock.