Demeree Question

[Xander]

I'm at a loss here to work out what you've done - or what you hope to achieve?

Mee too, I panicked a little as it began to rain half way through and I couldn't find the queen for the life of me (I also had 2 bees inside my veil) so I did what I've read about to split the hive without finding the queen by shaking some of the brood frames into the hive and putting them into a new box, leave a frame of capped a frame of drawn and a frame of stores with the queen and fill in the sides with foundation after centering the frames left in each box.
Then put on a qx and put the box with the shaken bee less frames on top and leave for 5-8 hours to allow nurse bees to move up back onto the brood frames.
Then come back and take off the top box and put on a new floor to one side of the hive so it's now split.
The flying bees will come back to the box with the queen in and the nurse bees will be on the open brood in the other box.
Leave for a week then move the split to the other side of the Q+ hive so extra flying bees will go into the Q+ hive (I don't understand the logic of that bit)
Allow the q- box to rear a new queen.

What I wanted to do was a Demaree but I couldn't find the queen. I think I should have just put 2 supers and another qx between after letting the nurse bees move up to the brood but I was worried about more cells being made and them swarming anyway (this was before I asked you about leaving cells in the top of a Demaree being ok)

Is it possible just to recombine into a Demaree now or will they fight after 5 days apart?

 

[JamezF]

Leave for a week then move the split to the other side of the Q+ hive so extra flying bees will go into the Q+ hive (I don't understand the logic of that bit)

You don't understand why it's done, or you don't understand why the flying bees will return to the Q+ hive?

James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Leave for a week then move the split to the other side of the Q+ hive so extra flying bees will go into the Q+ hive (I don't understand the logic of that bit)

There isn't really for 'normal' beekeepers, but it's part of the accepted mantra

What I wanted to do was a Demaree but I couldn't find the queen.

Then what you should have done (and were halfway there) was just shake all the bees into the bottom box and leave them with some frames of drawn comb (just one of the original brood frames with not much brood but plenty of vacated cells will do at a push) the queen will then be down there somewhere. Put a QX on, then the supers, then the Demarree board (optional) and your top box with all the brood in. The nurse bees will quickly migrate to the top box, the queen is in the bottom box with just foundation or empty drawn comb for the workers to play with

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is it possible just to recombine into a Demaree now or will they fight after 5 days apart?

you will probably get away with it, but what's the point now?

 

[Xander]

I understand the bees will return to the spot where they left from or orientated to most recently it was why would I want to bleed more flyers from the hive I moved to one side but I think I know where Ive become muddled up.
I should have moved the Q+ box to one side and left the brood with the cell on the original spot.
I've mixed and matched and made a bugger of it.
One of the articles I read Swarm Control - Bee Craft Ltd
Is why I decided to split rather than Demaree as it allows me to get away with having the queen in the "wrong" box and I should be able to tell which is q+ by going in this weekend and looking for cells which would indicate the q- box.
Once I know where she is I'd like to put them into a Demaree if they won't fight?
I was like a drowning man last weekend and don't want to end up there again.
I'd ask my ex mentor but I don't trust him to do what's best for me as when I told him I'd found a swarm cell he put a load of bait hives out in his garden same day (he's 2 doors down and he lost one of his 2 hives this winter).
My plan is to go in when it's not raining this weekend and assess the situation then button them up until I can get some advice rather than panic and have another really bad day.

 

[user 20297]

I understand the bees will return to the spot where they left from or orientated to most recently it was why would I want to bleed more flyers from the hive I moved to one side but I think I know where Ive become muddled up.
I should have moved the Q+ box to one side and left the brood with the cell on the original spot.
I've mixed and matched and made a bugger of it.
One of the articles I read Swarm Control - Bee Craft Ltd
Is why I decided to split rather than Demaree as it allows me to get away with having the queen in the "wrong" box and I should be able to tell which is q+ by going in this weekend and looking for cells which would indicate the q- box.
Once I know where she is I'd like to put them into a Demaree if they won't fight?
I was like a drowning man last weekend and don't want to end up there again.
I'd ask my ex mentor but I don't trust him to do what's best for me as when I told him I'd found a swarm cell he put a load of bait hives out in his garden same day (he's 2 doors down and he lost one of his 2 hives this winter).
My plan is to go in when it's not raining this weekend and assess the situation then button them up until I can get some advice rather than panic and have another really bad day.

Your ex-mentor sounds like a bit of a twit.

 

[Xander]

Your ex-mentor sounds like a bit of a twit.

Yes, something that sounds like that.
I've looked in today, the hive on the original site which I thought had the queen has some older brood, no eggs no young larvae.
The box I split off to the side with most of the brood has several (more than 6 open queen cells, charged with fat grubs inside and some smaller larvae also, I couldn't see any eggs however.
I closed it back up as I don't know my next move.
Recombine on the original site so they can raise a new queen together (I must have damaged/killed her or missed her leaving last week (there was a capped QC at the beginning of the saga which I knocked down when I moved the frames)
Or move a frame with a QC into the box with no cells so they can raise a new queen each?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I closed it back up as I don't know my next move.

You have to see it through now,
One of the boxes is guaranteed to have no queen (the box with all the brood) so leave them make a new queen
The other box which should have the queen in, she may have been killed (doubtful) she may have just gone off lay after all the kerfuffle (possible) or you may just have missed the fresh eggs laid since the 'split'
What I would do is, reduce the QCs in the 'box with the brood' down to one good open QC but take one frame with just one open QC into the box where you thought the queen was. If the queen is still in there, she will just tear down the QC and carry on laying - if she's gone, they can raise a new queen from the QC.

 

[rolande]

(there was a capped QC at the beginning of the saga which I knocked down

Just one queen cell?

 

[rolande]

Your ex-mentor sounds like a bit of a twit.

Or a saint

 

[drex]

Capped queen cell at the start of the saga suggests they swarmed. ( but on only one cell?)You have certainly ended up with a box with no queen or eggs. I would transfer one of the queen cells into this box, and cut down to one those in the other box.

 

[Xander]

Capped queen cell at the start of the saga suggests they swarmed. ( but on only one cell?)You have certainly ended up with a box with no queen or eggs. I would transfer one of the queen cells into this box, and cut down to one those in the other box.

Yes that's the plan now. Then I shall leave them alone to get on with it.
It's a steep learning curve and many many different ways to skin that poor old cat it can be overwhelming.
I'm sticking to one trusted source of information from now on until I'm knowledgeable enough to go it alone.
Thanks for all your help.

 

[Mabee]

I'd ask my ex mentor but I don't trust him to do what's best for me as when I told him I'd found a swarm cell he put a load of bait hives out in his garden same day

You could look at out the other way, he’s got a fairly new beekeeper he feels responsible for 2 doors away whose bees might swarm, he may feel he has a responsibility to try and catch them rather than them moving into a neighbours chimney…

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm sticking to one trusted source of information from now on until I'm knowledgeable enough to go it alone.

Good decision.

 

[Xander]

You could look at out the other way, he’s got a fairly new beekeeper he feels responsible for 2 doors away whose bees might swarm, he may feel he has a responsibility to try and catch them rather than them moving into a neighbours chimney…

He's not a neighbourly kinda guy, he's always reporting the chap between us to the council for various things and he put out a load of wet frames out in the summer next to his (4 foot) dividing fence so the resultant swarms of feeding bees would annoy said chap and his 6yr old daughter, so responsible he is not.
As someone said previously, a bit of a twww..i..t.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

anyone who leaves wet frames out to 'open feed' whether to annoy a neighbour or not has labelled themselves as 'best to avoid/ignore'

 

[user 20297]

He's not a neighbourly kinda guy, he's always reporting the chap between us to the council for various things and he put out a load of wet frames out in the summer next to his (4 foot) dividing fence so the resultant swarms of feeding bees would annoy said chap and his 6yr old daughter, so responsible he is not.
As someone said previously, a bit of a twww..i..t.

Yes I did....I am very experienced in this field...in fact, I'm surrounded by them.

 

[Niv]

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have a related question.

Yesterday I did my first Demaree (or thats what I am calling it!). Had issues locating the queen so shook all into new bottom box (only foundation and a frame of partial BIAS - my first error no doubt), then added a Qx, 2 x supers, Qx, original brood box. crown board, roof.

I have not made an entrance for the top brood box - is this wrong or is this only required if I am trying to make increase (i.e. so a new virgin queen can get mated)?

My plan is to check the top box in a few days to destroy any queen cells and then start to swap one or two frames from the bottom with the top to help manage swarming.

What I want to achieve is a proactive anti swarming method - I am not looking to make increase.

 

[JamezF]

If there's no entrance for the top brood box then hatched drones will be stuck inside until you let them out.

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

I make the entrance to let the drones out. I keep mine rolling. Move frames where brood has emerged and swap for capped brood from the bottom.
I always end up with supers over the top brood so another entrance is handy.