Defensive Colony

[Chunky Plumpy]

The advantage of caging the queen first are twofold: the bees are less grumpy, and it avoids having to look through lots of frames for EQCs - a bonus with a big feisty colony.

Thanks everyone, I shall certainly switch queen and given the temperament of this colony I’d like to try caging her for a few days first; if it all goes wrong and I kill her then nothing lost whilst I get to learn something extra.

@Sutty, or anyone else for that matter, how long do you suggest I imprison the queen before dispatching her? Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

Thanks everyone, I shall certainly switch queen and given the temperament of this colony I’d like to try caging her for a few days first; if it all goes wrong and I kill her then nothing lost whilst I get to learn something extra.

@Sutty, or anyone else for that matter, how long do you suggest I imprison the queen before dispatching her? Cheers, CP.

You just need to ensure there are no larvae 3 days old or less.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

You just need to ensure there are no larvae 3 days old or less.

Thanks, I read this in parallel and concluded the same:

- “It is possible for all female larvae under three days old to become a queen, though larger, more vigorous queens are produced with the youngest larvae, less than one day old.”

So I shall cage the angry cow for 3 days and on the 4th day I shall dispatch her and swap in a good frame with eggs and small larvae from the mellow hive.

Is it okay to simply swap the frames over, as I only have two hives and both with full BB’s? Cheers, CP.

 

[ericbeaumont]

like the suggestion from @Little_bees about swapping in a frame from my chilled bees

Yes, but don't kill the queen at the same time you add the frame of open brood.

Instead, cage the queen and leave it for a week between top bars. All eggs with defensive genetics will by then be too old for bees to use, but the Q pheromone will keep the colony as calm as it's ever going to be.

Take out the cage and kill the queen and add the frame of good brood. Wait until QCs are sealed, at which point you could make up nucs with spares.

This method avoids the need to search and remove EQCs from a defensive Q- colony, and gives a certain outcome: QCs using calm genetics.

Edit: Sutty described earlier the benefit of caging the queen. I failed to read the full story!

 

[hairywill]

Edit: Sutty described earlier the benefit of caging the queen. I failed to read the full story!

I tried this last year. Queen was caged in the middle of the broodbox. I still found EMQs next time I opened the hive. I presumed that not enough pheromones were being dispersed through the colony. It gives me hope to see a couple of people suggest it, maybe I was unlucky. I have another defensive colony this year, I will give it another try.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

I tried this last year. Queen was caged in the middle of the broodbox. I still found EMQs next time I opened the hive. I presumed that not enough pheromones were being dispersed through the colony. It gives me hope to see a couple of people suggest it, maybe I was unlucky. I have another defensive colony this year, I will give it another try.

Hi @hairywill , my angry mob is quite a small colony so I’m hoping the queen centrally located will be adequate but when done I shall report back…. cheers, CP.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

ADVICE REQUIRED... HELP please!

I inspected both hives today and whilst all 'normal' I need to be sure I'm about to do the right thing. The calm hive was deliciously calm and welcoming, unsurprisingly the angry mob were horrible. Whilst I found and caged the angry queen quickly on the third frame I was stung through my gloves and had to smoke myself just to get them off me and see whilst putting the hive back together. All rather unnerving/unpleasant.

The Issue or potential change of plan is because the happy hive has numerous capped queen cells (I think) in only 7 days. I was suspicious last week when I inspected but as a noob I had no idea it would all move this fast:




Sorry about the focus but it was difficult doing it one handed in gloves on a smart phone! They are both drawn down from the queen excluder, there are more like these on the bottom of the frames and that's without trying to find them after already seeing the queen was still there; queen, fresh brood and all well so I left them to it.

So a change of plan is in order I think but I wanted to double check before I do something stupid and jeopardise both colonies. I was thinking I would:

1) Accelerate Plan A: Go back tomorrow, kill the caged queen after only one day and swap in a brood frame with a queen cell and very small/young larvae on it from the other hive (I assume I can simply swap frames so the one I replace goes back in the calm hive?). This would risk queen cells on the original frames in the angry hive but after 3 days I go back in and destroy those leaving only the cells on the frame swapped in. Is that okay?

2) Attempt Swarm Management: On the doner hive I still have the issue of them wanting to leave if they do not go today as the sun just came out. I have a tatty nuc box so was going to attempt to split the colony using that. My concern was that having nabbed a good frame for the angry hive I was not sure if that was a bad idea and risked making the nice colony too thinly spread over three hives. How does this part of the plan sound?

Apologies for the frantic tone of my request for help but I'm still in my first year bee keeping so all activities are firsts and at the same time. I shall go back in tomorrow and try both these things unless advised otherwise. Also, any suggestions on the order I should do things would be welcomed since the idea of opening the angry mob first and then splitting the other hive whilst under constant attack is not at all appealing.

Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

If you have another box eg nuc I would immediately put the queen and a few frames with no queen cells into it with a few shakes of bees. Capped cells mean swarming is imminent.
Then reduce the queen cells to 2 on different frames.
Protect the sides of one of the cells with eg aluminium foil to stop the bees destroying it.
Kill the nasty queen and add the frame with the protected cell.
Leave alone for the queens to emerge, get mated and start laying.

 

[North End Bees]

1. Nuc the nice Q asap so you don't lose her. With nice weather tomorrow morning she may be off as soon as it's warm enough. If you feel you're short of brood she only needs 1 frame of emerging brood with adhering bees plus a few shakes extra bees. 2 frames stores.

2. Remove horrible Q and give the bees a frame with a well developed open QC. Brush the bees off carefully, don't shake the frame.

3. Leave one healthy open cell in the nice colony and close them up.

Leaving open cells means you can gauge emergence. Go back a couple of days before to remove any new EQCs.

 

[North End Bees]

the idea of opening the angry mob first and then splitting the other hive whilst under constant attack is not at all appealing.

Probably should have said earlier but just thinking it would be easier to inspect if you move the hive temporarily from its stand.

Put the supers on a spare floor and move the floor/brood box a couple of metres away. Put the supers on the original stand. If you don't have a spare floor just wedge the boxes open half an inch on any board.

Put a spare crown board on the moved brood box and give them ten minutes or so before coming back to open them. The foragers (the worst behaved bees) will return to the supers at the original stand giving you a lot less bees to contend with.

When you're finished just put it all together again.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Thanks everyone, I got up this morning and accompanied by some really angry bees I went all in. I realise having reread the various posts I did make a mistake, I'm sure I made loads but at least one for sure.

I started with the calm colony who were so docile it was a pleasure as usual. The brood box did not contain a lot of stores, as it is populated with mostly brood and has two supers above so I:

• Took one of the end BB frames with pollen and some open stores and placed it at the front of the nuc
• Took the frame with queen, destroyed some queen cells, placed it next to the first
• Shook two more frames of bees in, looked like a good supply so I was at least happy with that bit!
• Third BB frame was a really old tatty one I had to brush up and clean a bit but had comb on it so thought that best (glad I kept it now!)
• Fourth was a brand new frame with foundation

Then I needed to get creative because I don't think there was adequate stores and I had no more BB frames. So:

• Fifth a heavy super with a some capped and some open stores which I swapped out of the nice five for a new frame with foundation
• Sixth a dummy board I had to make out of some OSB to reduce the gap at the end.
• Closed it all up!

Question: I leave the nuc sealed for a couple of days and then open up to let them out, yes? I need to work out what to do with it as I have no more hives or gear, so a couple of days would be ideal to find this queen a nice new home.

The rest was relatively easy but for my mistake. Short on BB frames I made another dummy board; after taking two BB frames for the nuc I replaced with my last spare foundation BB frame and a dummy board. I turned to the 2nd hive, dispatched the 'angry queen' and simply swapped a BB frame with a third frame from the nice hive... I assume that's okay!?

The mistake: I left one sealed queen cell in each hive whilst removing all the others (there were none in the angry hive anyway - it's a developing colony).

I now realise I should have left an open cell in each, destroying all the sealed cells... oops! What is the best course of action, as I'm really not wanting to go back to what are some seriously angry followers now? There are no open or developing queen cells because I removed them all, there are only the two sealed ones. Do I go back in 2-3 days and squish these two whilst leaving other open cells or is it two late now?

It felt very destructive today, removing both queens and destroying all but one queen cell so I'd appreciate any advice. I need to go back in 3 days to ensure no other cells develop on the angry hive frames, I assume it is then I 'could' favour alternate developing cells if they are on the correct frames or do I just go with the ones I have chosen?

Once again, thanks for all your help. Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

Thanks everyone, I got up this morning and accompanied by some really angry bees I went all in. I realise having reread the various posts I did make a mistake, I'm sure I made loads but at least one for sure.

I started with the calm colony who were so docile it was a pleasure as usual. The brood box did not contain a lot of stores, as it is populated with mostly brood and has two supers above so I:

• Took one of the end BB frames with pollen and some open stores and placed it at the front of the nuc
• Took the frame with queen, destroyed some queen cells, placed it next to the first
• Shook two more frames of bees in, looked like a good supply so I was at least happy with that bit!
• Third BB frame was a really old tatty one I had to brush up and clean a bit but had comb on it so thought that best (glad I kept it now!)
• Fourth was a brand new frame with foundation

Then I needed to get creative because I don't think there was adequate stores and I had no more BB frames. So:

• Fifth a heavy super with a some capped and some open stores which I swapped out of the nice five for a new frame with foundation
• Sixth a dummy board I had to make out of some OSB to reduce the gap at the end.
• Closed it all up!

Question: I leave the nuc sealed for a couple of days and then open up to let them out, yes? I need to work out what to do with it as I have no more hives or gear, so a couple of days would be ideal to find this queen a nice new home.

The rest was relatively easy but for my mistake. Short on BB frames I made another dummy board; after taking two BB frames for the nuc I replaced with my last spare foundation BB frame and a dummy board. I turned to the 2nd hive, dispatched the 'angry queen' and simply swapped a BB frame with a third frame from the nice hive... I assume that's okay!?

The mistake: I left one sealed queen cell in each hive whilst removing all the others (there were none in the angry hive anyway - it's a developing colony).

I now realise I should have left an open cell in each, destroying all the sealed cells... oops! What is the best course of action, as I'm really not wanting to go back to what are some seriously angry followers now? There are no open or developing queen cells because I removed them all, there are only the two sealed ones. Do I go back in 2-3 days and squish these two whilst leaving other open cells or is it two late now?

It felt very destructive today, removing both queens and destroying all but one queen cell so I'd appreciate any advice. I need to go back in 3 days to ensure no other cells develop on the angry hive frames, I assume it is then I 'could' favour alternate developing cells if they are on the correct frames or do I just go with the ones I have chosen?

Once again, thanks for all your help. Cheers, CP.

I'd just leave them alone. Examine in 5 days to remove EQCs, then wait for the queens to emerge & mate.
I don't see a huge advantage in open Vs sealed cells in this circumstance. One of the arguments for open cells is that you can have a cell that has emerged but been resealed by the bees - that doesn't sound a real possibility in your case. Another is for EQCs to make sure the selected cell was a very young larva when converted to an EQC, as your cells are swarm cells that's not an issue either.
Someone else may be able to suggest other reasons.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

That's a a relief @Sutty , wasn't looking forward to the idea of going back in to rummage about anytime soon. Happy to leave them an extra couple of days and then 'clean-up' any unwanted cells.

As for the nuc, I assume I must locate it in a permanent location when I open it up in a couple of days... or relocated 3 miles away? Cheers, CP.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't see a huge advantage in open Vs sealed cells in this circumstance

The main reason is so that you know when the new queen is due to emerge

 

[Erichalfbee]

As for the nuc, I assume I must locate it in a permanent location when I open it up in a couple of days... or relocated 3 miles away? Cheers, CP.

I never move them more than a few feet and never close them up. I always leave the roof off while I finish up with the parent colony and the flyers go home. That leaves only nurse bees behind

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Quick update after checking yesterday and removing all the new and emerging queen cells.

The little nuc is okay, queen still there, but was low on stores so swapped in a fresh half and half capped frame from one of the suppers on the big hives to keep it going. I took that from the 'nice hive' and then systematically squished all the unwanted queen cells. Then onto the second hive....

There is no preparing a noob for what was a truly horrible but unavoidable experience after that. I tended to the angry hive, and as suggested carefully checked the chosen frame for new cells before then shaking off all the bees from each frame thereafter to properly inspect and squish queen cells.

Just to recap, this thread is about managing a 'defensive colony' which I'd suggest plays down the aggressive nature of some bees. Nonetheless we know we're starting with an angry mob. Then we kill the queen which I understand can 'upset' a colony further. A few days later we open it up, shake the bees off to really upset them before they witness the destruction of all those other queen cells. They were NOT happy

For any other novice bee keepers having to undertaker this hive management activity, just be prepared for the noise. I was familiar with these bees being angry and the tone more threatening but I wasn't prepared for this level of activity and the associated noise. It was really quite unnerving to start with, especially as large clumps of bees gathered all over my suite and wellies to protest; top marks to the equipment as I was fine.

Don't be put off either, it was just that I wasn't prepared for it so took a some time to settle amidst the melee. After a while I could pretty much ignore them and actually traversed the frames in reverse again to double check after a hasty first pass. If I had a bee buddy I think I'd have benefit since they'd have known what to expect, nonetheless I got the job done and it was otherwise okay.

Suffice to say, that end of the property is now off limits as kamikaze bees patrol a 10 meter radius! I'll check stores on the nuc every few days but otherwise I believe the hives should be left alone for two weeks so the emerging queen can do her thing... thankfully! Cheers, CP.

 

[North End Bees]

You've had a real baptism of fire! Well done for persevering and seeing it through.

As you've taken pains to make sure there are no QCs from the nasty queen you can relax a bit. Bear in mind bees live around 6 weeks (plus some are still pupae!) so the results won't be instant.

If you want to avoid disturbing the other colonies for stores frames just feed the nuc some 1:1 syrup till they mature a bit (bearing in mind also potential June gap!)

 

[The Poot]

Quick update after checking yesterday and removing all the new and emerging queen cells.

The little nuc is okay, queen still there, but was low on stores so swapped in a fresh half and half capped frame from one of the suppers on the big hives to keep it going. I took that from the 'nice hive' and then systematically squished all the unwanted queen cells. Then onto the second hive....

There is no preparing a noob for what was a truly horrible but unavoidable experience after that. I tended to the angry hive, and as suggested carefully checked the chosen frame for new cells before then shaking off all the bees from each frame thereafter to properly inspect and squish queen cells.

Just to recap, this thread is about managing a 'defensive colony' which I'd suggest plays down the aggressive nature of some bees. Nonetheless we know we're starting with an angry mob. Then we kill the queen which I understand can 'upset' a colony further. A few days later we open it up, shake the bees off to really upset them before they witness the destruction of all those other queen cells. They were NOT happy

For any other novice bee keepers having to undertaker this hive management activity, just be prepared for the noise. I was familiar with these bees being angry and the tone more threatening but I wasn't prepared for this level of activity and the associated noise. It was really quite unnerving to start with, especially as large clumps of bees gathered all over my suite and wellies to protest; top marks to the equipment as I was fine.

Don't be put off either, it was just that I wasn't prepared for it so took a some time to settle amidst the melee. After a while I could pretty much ignore them and actually traversed the frames in reverse again to double check after a hasty first pass. If I had a bee buddy I think I'd have benefit since they'd have known what to expect, nonetheless I got the job done and it was otherwise okay.

Suffice to say, that end of the property is now off limits as kamikaze bees patrol a 10 meter radius! I'll check stores on the nuc every few days but otherwise I believe the hives should be left alone for two weeks so the emerging queen can do her thing... thankfully! Cheers, CP.

Well done mate!

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

You've had a real baptism of fire! Well done for persevering and seeing it through.

As you've taken pains to make sure there are no QCs from the nasty queen you can relax a bit. Bear in mind bees live around 6 weeks (plus some are still pupae!) so the results won't be instant.

If you want to avoid disturbing the other colonies for stores frames just feed the nuc some 1:1 syrup till they mature a bit (bearing in mind also potential June gap!)

Thanks @Little_bees , I very much like the idea of syrup to prevent robbing either hive for supers in June but the nuc was/is basically a large plywood ‘shoebox’ with some gauze or fine wire mess in the lid. I’m not sure how I could feed them through that.

I’m also unsure about ventilation vs overworking the bees to stay warm at night. As I type I feel a mini DIY project coming on, I might make another lid in which case I’ll fashion something to take a feeder. Until then I might need to rob another super or two through June. Cheers, CP.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I got the job done and it was otherwise okay.

Great job. You were well prepared and trusted your PPE.
Let’s hope you don’t have to do it again.
I’d look in the requeening colony in three weeks or ten days if you want to check the QC is open.