Defensive Colony

[Ian123]

Beekeeping should be a pleasant experience do not stand for aggressive bees, in average conditions I can potter about with mine in shorts tea shirt and a simple vest/hood. I’m not suggesting any beginners try that but it’s comfortable pleasant and teaches you to go steady. I’m also confident enough when taking the roof off and looking at the the bees to judge if I should go get my suit. I have plenty and depending on weather time of year of any intended serious manipulations I’ll put 1 on, even if it’s just to keep normal clothes clean.
For me 1 of the greatest pleasures with the bees is being in contact with them and not feeling like it’s a constant battle..
There’s some very good queen suppliers about providing bees that will fit this bill. I’m not for local mongrel bees they just vary to much and very few come close to what decent breeders/rearers can provide.
There’s plenty at the moment claiming local bees are best, it’s much over claimed over simplified and quite frankly a good bee in Surrey will work in Berks Kent Cornwall and the majority of the UK. The way some talk now about local bees appears to require different bees for Slough than those in Ascot

 

[Erichalfbee]

he way some talk now about local bees appears to require different bees for Slough than those in Ascot

Or Windsor.

 

[Ian123]

Or Windsor.

I thought I’d line it up for someone to make a comment regarding the varying differences in localities….wasn’t brave enough to include the Welsh!

 

[Erichalfbee]

wasn’t brave enough to include the Welsh!

Wise man. I don’t tamper with them either.

 

[North End Bees]

Ideally I’d rear a Queen from the docile colony… so happy to wait things out as I fear the docile bunch might attempt a swarm at which point I’d have Queen cells I might somehow move to the problem hive.

If your second colony is 'blissfully chilled', as you say, it sounds like it would worthwhile to donate a frame of very young brood to the defensive colony (having first dispatched the defensive Queen).
Mark the frame with a drawing pin and make sure you remove every emergency QC from every other frame in the defensive colony so they can't just rear another of their own genes.

 

[North End Bees]

Bees fly high to shag. The queen looks for the best shagger and they do their thing. All the drones from the area are out and up there looking to be the one so the DNA spreads and the queen gets the best and the drone from whichever colony gets his bragging rights.

The queen doesn't usually get a say in the choice!

 

[Carl]

The queen doesn't usually get a say in the choice!

I have never been up there to see!

 

[mychale]

Requeen unless a highly productive colony.

 

[Ian123]

Requeen unless a highly productive colony.

Eh……….No just re queen!!!!! There’s plenty of productive quiet colonies. If you or say the neighbours can’t use the garden productivity is irrelevant.

 

[Ely]

I have a very defensive colony which is starting to annoy me now. Neighbours, walkers and importantly my wife keep getting stung. I'm reluctantly accepting that I'll need to re-queen them. Can anyone recommend a source of mated queens?

Exmoor Bees and Beehives are great.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Work stopped play so not been outside enough to be bothered by my bees the last couple of days.

I’m really hoping they settle down but if not then re-queen I shall. I must say I like the suggestion from @Little_bees about swapping in a frame from my chilled bees. Life was like @Ian123 described before the second colony arrived, I used to take my brew sit in shorts and flip-flops near the hive to enjoy the gentle buzz and peacefulness of it all… so a second hive like the first would be bliss!

I shall inspect again this weekend and see how it goes between now and then. If I decide to ‘do the deed’ then I’ll be sure to report back. Cheers, CP.

 

[Sutty]

Work stopped play so not been outside enough to be bothered by my bees the last couple of days.

I’m really hoping they settle down but if not then re-queen I shall. I must say I like the suggestion from @Little_bees about swapping in a frame from my chilled bees. Life was like @Ian123 described before the second colony arrived, I used to take my brew sit in shorts and flip-flops near the hive to enjoy the gentle buzz and peacefulness of it all… so a second hive like the first would be bliss!

I shall inspect again this weekend and see how it goes between now and then. If I decide to ‘do the deed’ then I’ll be sure to report back. Cheers, CP.

They get worse-tempered once they are queenless I find.
I'd cage the queen for a few days whilst eggs and young larvae become too old for EQC use, and then kill the Q & add a frame of eggs from the nicer hive.
It worked for me even though I missed out the "cage the Q" step and so had to put up with the hive from hell whilst searching for EQCs!
That way you keep "local genes" if that matters to you, and should get a colony more like the donor one.

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Evening @Sutty, I inspected both my hives today and I think I've a few things going on.

I did the docile one first to avoid having to endure the angry buggers the whole time. It was an absolute pleasure and the tone of the hive never changed. I did see something I've not seen before which was a bluish 3 inch trail just under the surface of some cells in the top left corner of a brood frame. Should have taken a photo but didn't have my phone; instead I used my hive tool to remove all traces of it just in case. I wish I did have my camera as I saw a couple of cells which looked suspiciously different and could have done with a second opinion to make sure they are not queen cells.

I then turned my attention to the second hive, what a contrast. They immediately got loud and agitated with plenty of grumpy ones trying to see me off. I passed by my chickens on the way back and a follower found me and needed to be dispatched. We didn't have any more trouble from them but they are not at all nice and I'm going to re-queen for sure.

The only issue is I'm a complete noob having only got bees a year ago so not confident. I shall google queen cages and get one ordered asap, once caged how long do I leave it before doing the deed and swapping in a frame from the docile hive?

IF weather permits (and it's not looking good) I need to get back into the main happy hive to inspect the cells and ensure they are not queen cells. Ironically, if they were then could I dispatch the queen from the grumpy hive and put a frame with a queen cell straight in?

Either way I'm going to try the swap, if they fail then it's meant to be as they are not a nice bunch at all. Any more advice or further hints/tips would be very welcomed. Cheers, CP.

 

[North End Bees]

I shall google queen cages and get one ordered asap, once caged how long do I leave it before doing the deed and swapping in a frame from the docile hive?

You don't have to cage the queen. Dispatch her tomorrow and add a frame of eggs/young larvae from the good hive.
Make sure you mark the frame.

Go back in a few days and shake all bees off all the other frames to check definitely for QCs. Don't shake the donor frame!

 

[Chunky Plumpy]

Hi @Little_bees , I think the idea was to reduce the time the hive is without a queen by caging her, the eggs and larvae could then grow beyond eligibility to be queens and then dispatch her and swap a frame in from the other hive. It sounded like a nice addition to the process given the hive is grumpy enough before it becomes queenless and increases the likelihood of the doner frame rearing the queen but it's not essential.

Once the queen is dead, you said head back a few days latter (2-3?) to inspect the original frames. How long would you recommend I do that for, and what interval between checks; just a couple of times in the first 7-8 days or more regularly/longer?

I only ask as the weather forecast in the southwest is pants so not sure if I should wait for a better forecast? Cheers, CP.

 

[North End Bees]

Once the queen is dead, you said head back a few days latter (2-3?) to inspect the original frames. How long would you recommend I do that for, and what interval between checks; just a couple of times in the first 7-8 days or more regularly/longer?

2-3 days would be too soon. If you knocked down those cells they have plenty time to make more.
The eggs just laid before you took out the Q would just be hatching.

Also bear in mind that normally a Q emerges 15-16 days from egg but this can be hugely speeded up by desperate bees who then raise a Q from an older larva.

David Evans has said that bees of quite distinct lineages are known to choose an almost too old larva of their own genetics against a young one of the 'wrong' genes.

I would look in at about 5 days, destroying any QCs on original frames and then choosing best QC on donor frame.
If you leave an advanced open cell then you can better guage emerging time.

 

[Swarm]

You can go back a week later to deal with emergency cells, they may be capped but the queen is gone so no colony leaving.
Go back four days after adding the frame of eggs/young larvae and squash any capped cells, keeping a nicely fed open cell. This ensures you select a 'correct age' cell.

 

[Sutty]

The advantage of caging the queen first are twofold: the bees are less grumpy, and it avoids having to look through lots of frames for EQCs - a bonus with a big feisty colony.

 

[Swarm]

The advantage of caging the queen first are twofold: the bees are less grumpy, and it avoids having to look through lots of frames for EQCs - a bonus with a big feisty colony.

Absolutely, much easier.

 

[Sutty]

Absolutely, much easier.

And avoids the risk of missing one and getting requeened with the original genetics!