Dadant-Blatt hive

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Zante

Field Bee
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
683
Reaction score
0
Location
Near Florence, Italy
Hive Type
Dadant
Number of Hives
2
I am just starting now in my beekeeping adventure, I have a course starting in May lined up, and hopefully a year of following an experienced beekeeper after that.

I have already been looking at equipment in the meantime, I like to be well documented when I get to actually doing something. I have found that in Italy (I am Italian originally) they use something called Dadant-Blatt hives. What's the difference with what is called Dadant here in the UK?

I ask because I've seen the prices of those hives and they are ridiculous. For the price of one National hive here I can get two of those.
Considering that I go and visit friends and family fairly regularly it wouldn't be too much of a bother to bring back a couple of flat hives over a few trips (I have a whole year of apprenticeship in front of me).

Of course it might not be worth it if the Dadant-Blatt hive is different enough from what here is called a Dadant to make spares incompatible.
 
The critical issue is the size of the frames. If not standard Langstroth - as many Dadants are - then yearly acquisition of frames and foundation will be a pia.

And of course, if frames are longer than Langstroth, extraction may be a problem.

Also hive size specific parts which you cannot easily DIY - like queen excluders - may be a problem. Other parts in wood are possible if you can DIY.

EDIT

And if starting out buying a nucleus of bees, these may be on national (or Langstroth) frames. So you have a conversion job to do - which if you are new to bees will be fun...not.
 
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I've been trying to do some research, but it's not easy. I've been trying to compare frame sizes (brood frames in particular) using the dimensions stated on Thorne's site.

The frames on Thorne are about 13mm wider, but it looks like the frames on the Italian sites have shorter lugs, so the actual frame might be the same, but I haven't found measurements for the actual frame on the Italian site.
Height-wise there is a difference of 1mm which I suppose is irrelevant.

Foundation is slightly different.
On the Italian site it's quoted as being 410x260 mm while on Thorne's is quoted as 425.45x273.05 mm, but in Italy it is the frames that are wired, not the foundation, so the extra size of the English foundation might be to allow the foundation to sit in the frame's grooves?



Getting stocks won't be a major pita, as I said I go back to Italy at least twice a year, so with a bit of planning I can keep on top of it, maybe overstocking a little bit just in case. Queen excluders, more boxes, and so on wouldn't be a big issue.

I'm not particularly fond of the idea of having frames different than everyone else though, it would make helping out and being helped a lot more difficult. The information I've found isn't particularly helpful in dispelling these doubts unfortunately. I was hoping someone here actually knows if there is a difference between Dadant and Dadant-Blatt, or if it's just a different name for the same thing.

The hives look quite nice too, with a little porch for the bees...
(can't post images yet)
 
Here's a link to a book about the Dadant. It states that the Dadant-Blatt is identical to the Modified Dadant (MD), described here. It strikes me that this is an absolutely enormous hive, so watch out you don't injure your back!
 
Thanks for the link, when I get home from work I'll give it a good look.

As for the size, I'm not planning on taking it anywhere. Also there are different sizes on the Italian sites which are quoted as being "10 frames" and "12 frames" with the 10 frame size being the "nomadic" size.

As I said I'm not planning on moving it, so if it's viable I'll definitely go for the bigger one. If push comes to shove I might put it in a couple of nucs and thus move the lightened box.

Looks-wise, what do you think?
I can't post links yet, so please bear with the broken link
www(dot)mondoape(dot)it/23-471-thickbox/arnia-da-nomadismo-db-a-12-favi.jpg
 
Yes, it looks very nice. My point about the weight is that the supers will weigh around 15kg each when full, although I think it'll be some time before your enormous brood box is filled.
 
I see what you mean. You do have a point, but to be honest the weight of the super doesn't really worry me.
If push comes to shove I can remove some frames to lift it, and the metal handles will make things easier, if I even choose them, that is...
 
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Dadant is the most commonly available hive in my bit of France. I know that it is not the same as the uk modified dadant. (not just frame size but also top versus bottom bee space). I agree you need to be very careful, particularly when you consider your extractor. I bought one off an English couple here in France expecting it to be able to take dadant frames and ended up having to modify it to get the frames in as it was set up for nationals!

If I were you to save all the hassle "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".
 
Dadant is the most commonly available hive in my bit of France. I know that it is not the same as the uk modified dadant. (not just frame size but also top versus bottom bee space). I agree you need to be very careful, particularly when you consider your extractor. I bought one off an English couple here in France expecting it to be able to take dadant frames and ended up having to modify it to get the frames in as it was set up for nationals!

If I were you to save all the hassle "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".

You're not wrong there, but... the hives are seriously cheap.
An assembled, painted hive with super the size of 12 frames is 115 euro (approx £90 right now) on the site I'm looking at, while if you look at an equivalent (unpainted) national it's £360 on Thorne's site.
You can get four of them for the same price. More than enough to be a temptation anyway.
 
I'm thinking, if I can get my hands on a frame next time I'm over there, I can bring it back and check it for size, so I will be sure. There used to be a beekeeper in the village, but that was many (at least 20) years ago, so he might have retired (or even died, he was rather old as I remember him). I suppose it's a starting point.

Once I have a frame I'm sure I'll be able to track down a local Dadant in the beekeeping club and try a fit.
 
You're not wrong there, but... the hives are seriously cheap.
An assembled, painted hive with super the size of 12 frames is 115 euro (approx £90 right now) on the site I'm looking at, while if you look at an equivalent (unpainted) national it's £360 on Thorne's site.
You can get four of them for the same price. More than enough to be a temptation anyway.

I bought a full hive and all its contents Roof/ crown board/ brood box/ 2x supers and all the frames / foundation/ varroa floor for £165 last year from Thorne, they are at the £200 mark at the moment, they are however flat packed but i like making and building things.
I'm sure National Hives are the most common over here so would you be better sticking to national, that way when buying Nucs in or getting equipment given from your local association(if you have one) you have more chance of everything fitting together.
I'm new to all this also so take anything i say with a pinch of salt, the choice is yours at the end of the day, good luck in what ever route you take.
 
The unpainted national will be Cedar, the painted Dadant sounds like Pine?

Yes, it's pine, but from what I understand it is knotless.
Consider though that if not these Italian hives I'll probably look in the direction of a Dartington, which is plywood.

I bought a full hive and all its contents Roof/ crown board/ brood box/ 2x supers and all the frames / foundation/ varroa floor for £165 last year from Thorne, they are at the £200 mark at the moment, they are however flat packed but i like making and building things.
I'm sure National Hives are the most common over here so would you be better sticking to national, that way when buying Nucs in or getting equipment given from your local association(if you have one) you have more chance of everything fitting together.
I'm new to all this also so take anything i say with a pinch of salt, the choice is yours at the end of the day, good luck in what ever route you take.

You are perfectly right, the fact that a national would be a lot more... how can I say... exchange friendly is weighing a lot on my decision. As I said, I'll try and get my hands on a frame. It is very different to the Dadants in the UK the issue won't even arise. If instead they are compatible, well, the cost will be a heavy factor. Of course, the ability to extract honey from such frames will be a factor too.

I compared an assembled hive because that's what I had spotted. A flat packed hive from the same Italian company (remember: 12 jumbo langstroth frames in the brood box, so very large) is 88 euro. That's approximately £69.
That includes metal corners for the boxes and metal handles on the brood box as well as varroa floor, super, crown board and other bits and pieces. Not the queen excluder or any frames though.

If I were to go for the slightly smaller 10 frame one the price would drop to 83 euro (approx £65), not much of a price difference, but closer to a national in capacity.

Even cheaper the hive (size 10 frames) without the little attractive porch thing for 65 euro (approx £51)

Also don't think I selected a particular cheap supplier in Italy, the prices gravitate towards that price for other suppliers too, I'm just sticking to this particular site because it's easy to browse and for consistency.
 
I have found that in Italy ... they use something called Dadant-Blatt hives. What's the difference with what is called Dadant here in the UK?

AFAIK the hive that is called "Dadant" in the UK is often referred to as "Dadant US" on continental web sites. And AFAIK, the Dadant US hive is simply a US Langstroth hive with different box depths.

However, I have not been able to convince myself of these facts 100% despite endless Googling. The ways frame sizes are indicated on beekeeping shop web sites are confusing and contradictory (for example, when a frame's "width" is indicated, it may include the lugs, or not, and it may include the width of the sides, or not... depending on the web site).

Therefore I have no idea whether UK Dadant frames fit into Dadant Blatt hives or vice versa. If anyone here has Dadant hives, please tell us the dimensions of the frames.

AFAIK Dadant Blatt frames are not difficult to buy on the continent, and those shops often do ship to the UK.

For a beginning beekeeper, the hive itself seems like a large expense (and it is) but it is actually the frames that will cost you money. So if you want to do beekeeping on a budget, my advice would be to choose a hive type that allows you to use cheap frames. Larger hives require sturdier (and thus more expensive) frames. British National hives allow you to use very cheap frames, especially if you use castellated spacers.
 
Hi Zante,

It's great fun digging through all your possibilities before making your first purchase, and I made so many different 'definite final decisions' on the direction I was going in before settling on making a purchase... and then after making that purchase I then changed my mind to settle on a different hive format.

There are many things to consider, and the initial purchase isn't the end of your buying, and you often end up needing to buy bits and bobs throughout the season, and then grabbing some deals in the various supplier sales.

I'd love to see a link to these hives you're looking at?

However, I'd really recommend choosing a hive format that is well provided for here in the uk so when you need a new brood box, a pack of frames, a new floor etc etc then you can make a call and it'll be at your door a couple of days later. I understand that emergency purchases happen in beekeeping... especially in your first few seasons!

There are plenty of suppliers in the uk with a good range, and there is a significant variation in prices once you start digging.

Millet's pinch of salt is correct though; there are likely far more Nationals around you so when you need help with a frame of brood or a nuc etc then local stock are likely to be able to slot right in if you have Nationals.

That I know of within a mile of me there are Nationals, Langstroths, Commercials, a strange poly Langstroth/National hybrid, and a colony in a chimney!

I think you will learn a lot when you start learning when the season starts which will help you make your 'final' decision, but I wonder if importing an obscure hive format in from Itlay will cause you more hassle than it's worth, especially if the format is not well supported/supplied in the uk. I wonder if in the long run it might cost you more.

But of course it might work fabulously for you, so keep researching and exploring and chatting!

If you're interested in how and why I came to my final decision then feel free to send me a private message... but I'm not going to rant on here that my decision is the best... because I might be wrong! At the end of the day it's about what works best for you and what fits with your approach and personality.

But do send a link to the Italian website you've been browsing... I'm curious.
(or name the site if the link is blocked by the forum)

Welcome to this crazy world!

BJD
 
Hi Zante,

It's great fun digging through all your possibilities before making your first purchase, and I made so many different 'definite final decisions' on the direction I was going in before settling on making a purchase... and then after making that purchase I then changed my mind to settle on a different hive format.

Yep, I fully expect to change my mind a few times too :D

There are many things to consider, and the initial purchase isn't the end of your buying, and you often end up needing to buy bits and bobs throughout the season, and then grabbing some deals in the various supplier sales.

I'd love to see a link to these hives you're looking at?

Here you go
www(dot)mondoape(dot)it/arnie

However, I'd really recommend choosing a hive format that is well provided for here in the uk so when you need a new brood box, a pack of frames, a new floor etc etc then you can make a call and it'll be at your door a couple of days later. I understand that emergency purchases happen in beekeeping... especially in your first few seasons!

Indeed. That's why I was wondering if those Dadants are compatible with the Dadant materials that can be bought over here.

There are plenty of suppliers in the uk with a good range, and there is a significant variation in prices once you start digging.

Millet's pinch of salt is correct though; there are likely far more Nationals around you so when you need help with a frame of brood or a nuc etc then local stock are likely to be able to slot right in if you have Nationals.

That I know of within a mile of me there are Nationals, Langstroths, Commercials, a strange poly Langstroth/National hybrid, and a colony in a chimney!

I don't disagree with that in the least, and the "excangeability" factor will also weigh heavily in my final decision when it really becomes final and I fork out the money.

I think you will learn a lot when you start learning when the season starts which will help you make your 'final' decision, but I wonder if importing an obscure hive format in from Itlay will cause you more hassle than it's worth, especially if the format is not well supported/supplied in the uk. I wonder if in the long run it might cost you more.

But of course it might work fabulously for you, so keep researching and exploring and chatting!

Well, as I said, above, this is what I was mainly wondering on this thread: whether they are the same Dadant or not. As I replied to someone else, if they are not compatible, then the question will not even arise, I'll probably go for a deep national or a Dartington, but if they are compatible with materials I can find in the UK the Italian hives will be back in the game.

If you're interested in how and why I came to my final decision then feel free to send me a private message... but I'm not going to rant on here that my decision is the best... because I might be wrong! At the end of the day it's about what works best for you and what fits with your approach and personality.

I'm sure I will hear a lot of pros and cons of each hive type during the course and during my apprenticeship so there is plenty of time to make my mind and change it several times. For the moment I have this niggling curiosity about these italian hives. Once I know what's what (sizewise) I will know whether to exclude them or consider them.

Welcome to this crazy world!

BJD

Thank you :)
 
BTW, I went on that site to purchase a brood frame and a super frame, so that I could match them up to a Dadant in the UK, and the total was €1.45 (just over £1), and have them shipped to my parents' place so that when I go and visit them in March I can pick them up.

€10.45 shipping! To Italy!

I think I will have to look for another supplier to do this experiment :D
 
French Dadant BB frame dimensions.

Width 25mm
Top bar overall length including lugs 470mm
Top bar exterior side bar to exterior side bar 435mm
Top bar interior side bar to interior side bar 418mm
Top of top bar to bottom of bottom bar 300mm
Botom of top bar to top of bottom bar 265mm
 
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