Curse their little buzzy bodies - swarm issues

[Beagle23]

Evening all

As the weather here in Surrey has been wet and cold for the past month I refrained from checking my one remaining colony until three days ago.
On inspection all was not well. The only brood present were drones and in a scattered pattern. My queen (who I found immediately), is nearly six years old and is/was evidently, no longer laying. So after a searching for somewhere with queens in stock, a quest to rival that for the Holy Grail, I purchased one, it's arriving tomorrow (Friday).
On Friday I was planning on retiring the old queen and introducing the new one, but this morning the colony decided to swarm and despite my best efforts I couldn't find where they settled.
The one sliver of hope that I have is the large number of bees (several thousand), which have returned to their old hive as of 16:30. There's no sign of the queen.

So my question is this. If I open the hive up tomorrow morning and find a few thousand bees present, is it still worth adding the new queen when she arrives in the morning (in her cage of course)?

If it isn't, does anyone want to buy a mated Buckfast queen

 

[drex]

?????
Rather odd. A hive with a six year old queen, who is not laying, decides to swarm. Surely certain death for both colonies.
Are you sure you are reading the signs correctly?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Yes and depends on provenance

But I would not guarantee success: the sequence sounds odd. What sort of QCs were left? GUESSING your situation (always dangerous) I would consider leaving the Q out for a day or so while the bees ponder their doom (be sure they are hopelessly Q-). Then shook swarm the whole lot, get them good and wet, bung in the queen in a nuc box with QE entrance, feed like hell and hope like heller.

 

[Beagle23]

Yes and depends on provenance

But I would not guarantee success: the sequence sounds odd. What sort of QCs were left? GUESSING your situation (always dangerous) I would consider leaving the Q out for a day or so while the bees ponder their doom (be sure they are hopelessly Q-). Then shook swarm the whole lot, get them good and wet, bung in the queen in a nuc box with QE entrance, feed like hell and hope like heller.

No queen cells, no attempts by the workers to lay. There may be some other reason for them absconding but I don't see it. I went through the hive today and there was no sign of anything unusual.

As you say, I need to roll a six on the dice

 

[Beagle23]

?????
Rather odd. A hive with a six year old queen, who is not laying, decides to swarm. Surely certain death for both colonies.
Are you sure you are reading the signs correctly?

I know I should have re-queened but I was attached, she was my first..

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Well you have workers, you have a Q and you have a load of old wrecked comb that they seem to have baled on for some reason despite it being "suicidal". It's an odd situation but given the info we have I still suggest a shook swarm. And to be clear, when I say bung her in I mean just that (why I suggest wetting the bees) - no cage: I reckon time poorly-fed in the cage will actually reduce chances of acceptance in this case.

<ADD>You need to KNOW (use a QE) the old Q is not around. @Hivemaker. used to reckon half the queens he sold were killed on introduction. I have sold a few Qs and stopped for the same reason.</ADD>

 

[Beagle23]

Well you have workers, you have a Q and you have a load of old wrecked comb that they seem to have baled on for some reason despite it being "suicidal". It's an odd situation but given the info we have I still suggest a shook swarm. And to be clear, when I say bung her in I mean just that (why I suggest wetting the bees) - no cage: I reckon time poorly-fed in the cage will actually reduce chances of acceptance in this case.

<ADD>You need to KNOW (use a QE) the old Q is not around. @Hivemaker. used to reckon half the queens he sold were killed on introduction. I have sold a few Qs and stopped for the same reason.</ADD>

Thanks

A £40 roll on the roulette wheel

Wish me (and her) luck

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thanks

A £40 roll on the roulette wheel

Wish me (and her) luck

Better than evens! Improved further by stifling your curiosity for at least a week. Oh and assuming Black/Red come up, expect them to supersede her unless they decide not to before the end of the season: wintering on her own brood she will be safe.

 

[drdrday]

Wish me (and her) luck

☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘

 

[jeff33]

Seen as you haven't opened the hive for quite a while, are you sure you don't have a virgin in there and what you thought as a swarm was a mating flight with entourage? Old queen could have been forced out.

 

[Beagle23]

Better than evens! Improved further by stifling your curiosity for at least a week. Oh and assuming Black/Red come up, expect them to supersede her unless they decide not to before the end of the season: wintering on her own brood she will be safe.

In the low percentiles I think. The hive this morning contained only several hundred bees, stragglers from yesterday's swarm I expect. So even if the new queen is accepted straight away and starts laying I'm not sure there's enough mass to get everything established.
I've done splits and re-queening before and having brood present makes all the difference.

Thanks for the advice though, I do appreciate it

 

[Beagle23]

☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘☘

Thank you

 

[Beagle23]

Seen as you haven't opened the hive for quite a while, are you sure you don't have a virgin in there and what you thought as a swarm was a mating flight with entourage? Old queen could have been forced out.

It was definitely the old queen, I saw her on Tuesday

 

[Erichalfbee]

In the low percentiles I think. The hive this morning contained only several hundred bees, stragglers from yesterday's swarm I expect. So even if the new queen is accepted straight away and starts laying I'm not sure there's enough mass to get everything established.
I've done splits and re-queening before and having brood present makes all the difference.

Thanks for the advice though, I do appreciate it

No chance at all. Offer her to somebody in your local association who won’t send her to her doom?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would consider leaving the Q out for a day or so while the bees ponder their doom (be sure they are hopelessly Q-). Then shook swarm the whole lot, get them good and wet

Where on earth did you dream up that from?

 

[jeff33]

It was definitely the old queen, I saw her on Tuesday

Yes you saw the old queen and didn't spot the virgin which is also in the hive....and rolling a 6 dice is why so many bees and queens get killed for no reason.

 

[Beagle23]

Yes you saw the old queen and didn't spot the virgin which is also in the hive....and rolling a 6 dice is why so many bees and queens get killed for no reason.

There was no virgin Jeff, the colony is failing because the queen has stopped laying.

 

[jeff33]

What I am struggling to understand is why would they swarm or whatever you want to call it with no hope of any half surviving. I know they don't follow the same rational as we do but I don't think they would go down that way without 1 half being able to survive.

 

[Beagle23]

What I am struggling to understand is why would they swarm or whatever you want to call it with no hope of any half surviving. I know they don't follow the same rational as we do but I don't think they would go down that way without 1 half being able to survive.

I agree, I don't get it either.
I should point out that it was an abscondment. Typically when they swarm the old queen leaves half the colony to tend for the new queen and the brood, but as there is no new queen or any brood I presume the bees had no incentive to remain.
It's my first experience of a non laying queen leaving so I don't know if this is typical or not

 

[Curly green finger's]

What I am struggling to understand is why would they swarm or whatever you want to call it with no hope of any half surviving. I know they don't follow the same rational as we do but I don't think they would go down that way without 1 half being able to survive.

So a possible supercedure?