Concrete beehive

[Erichalfbee]

Amazing that they are still there.

 

[user 20297]

.

Amazing that they are still there.

......especially as Laurence had made sure that the roof was securely fitted and that the inside was kept dry.
I don't think @Beesnaturally would find it so surprising.

 

[rolande]

I don't think @Beesnaturally would find it so surprising.

He might do, unless the bees are local survivor stock!

 

[Ian123]

He might do, unless the bees are local survivor stock!

I very much doubt it he’s a sensible beekeeper

 

[Beesnaturally]

Unsurprised. Interesting to note the concrete contained perlite, though not so much apparently that it was less than 'very heavy'.

I'd be interested in knowing the entrance size. I would reckon it would have to be fairly large to keep condensation low.

I've done the matchsticks thing. I had low losses that year. I think the bee's trick is to live on wax not wet wood or freezing concrete, and to have enough ventilation to be able to control their humidity. They are challenged by cold. But much more challenged by cold and damp at the same time. Don't they overwinter ok in dry) metal postboxes?

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Zest hive?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Unsurprised. Interesting to note the concrete contained perlite, though not so much apparently that it was less than 'very heavy'.

I'd be interested in knowing the entrance size. I would reckon it would have to be fairly large to keep condensation low.

I've done the matchsticks thing. I had low losses that year. I think the bee's trick is to live on wax not wet wood or freezing concrete, and to have enough ventilation to be able to control their humidity. They are challenged by cold. But much more challenged by cold and damp at the same time. Don't they overwinter ok in dry) metal postboxes?

Bees seem to survive most places. Thriving is another issue. The entrance size is in the video.

 

[user 6228]

Bees seem to survive most places. Thriving is another issue. The entrance size is in the video.

if you accept the performance limitations of a thin wooden hive then anything that provides shelter from the wind and rain is also adequate. The thermal resistance of the hive is series with that of the air in the cavity, the cluster and the heat transfer from the surface of the hive. As the thermal resistance of the hive low compared to the sum of the other resistances,it has little impact, if you replace it with a !thermal short circuit". This is because the total thermal resistance doesnt change much between a hive and the short circuit.. Thats why lots of early experiments in "wrapping hives" did not show much because the additional resistance they added was still insignificant. (i've done the sums)

 

[Swarm]

Unsurprised. Interesting to note the concrete contained perlite, though not so much apparently that it was less than 'very heavy'.

I'd be interested in knowing the entrance size. I would reckon it would have to be fairly large to keep condensation low.

I've done the matchsticks thing. I had low losses that year. I think the bee's trick is to live on wax not wet wood or freezing concrete, and to have enough ventilation to be able to control their humidity. They are challenged by cold. But much more challenged by cold and damp at the same time. Don't they overwinter ok in dry) metal postboxes?

 

[SWEET]

Those concrete hives look like luxury hotels vs some of the dire old oaks I've removed bees from. One next to the house prob had bees living in the rotting cave for over 100 years until the lot came down.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Bees seem to survive most places. Thriving is another issue. The entrance size is in the video.

That looks like about 2" 4" by 3/4" to me, with perhaps the same again through a loosely fitted entrance block. I'd call that a fair amount of ventilation.

It seem to me that a goer, if it can get into spring at a reasonable size, can have a great season in any dry protective space. That amounts to thriving I should think.

 

[user 6228]

Unsurprised. Interesting to note the concrete contained perlite, though not so much apparently that it was less than 'very heavy'.

I'd be interested in knowing the entrance size. I would reckon it would have to be fairly large to keep condensation low.

I've done the matchsticks thing. I had low losses that year. I think the bee's trick is to live on wax not wet wood or freezing concrete, and to have enough ventilation to be able to control their humidity. They are challenged by cold. But much more challenged by cold and damp at the same time. Don't they overwinter ok in dry) metal postboxes?

in winter how does a bee control nest humidity via ventilation in a thin wooden box or openreach junction box ?

 

[Beesnaturally]

if you accept the performance limitations of a thin wooden hive then anything that provides shelter from the wind and rain is also adequate. The thermal resistance of the hive is series with that of the air in the cavity...

That's an odd choice of words. Perhaps its a technical use I'm unfamiliar with?

5/8" or so of DRY cedar supplies fairly good insulation, but, again, given the open door, the temperature inside the hive will be barely greater than that outside. There will be wind shelter, and perhaps the odd couple of degrees of temperature rise will take the edge of the humidity on damp days. In other words the air inside is virtually 'serial' with the air outside but possibly a little dryer. This will depend entirely on the ventilation that modulated air change.

A dry wooden wall will however reflect infrared radiation - if that helps; and the possibility of lowered humidity will help keep the wall dry.

the cluster and the heat transfer from the surface of the hive.

The cluster is the bit that matters most. That's where 99% of the climate control is happening (wind-chill aside)

As the thermal resistance of the hive low compared to the sum of the other resistances,it has little impact, if you replace it with a !thermal short circuit". This is because the total thermal resistance doesnt change much between a hive and the short circuit..

Yeah, that's either over-techical language, or gobbledegook. I think I can see what you mean but I suspect you are trying to blind us with sciency language.

Thats why lots of early experiments in "wrapping hives" did not show much because the additional resistance they added was still insignificant. (i've done the sums)

"Milk production at a dairy farm was low, so the farmer wrote to the local university, asking for help from academia. A multidisciplinary team of professors was assembled, headed by a theoretical physicist, and two weeks of intensive on-site investigation took place. The scholars then returned to the university, notebooks crammed with data, where the task of writing the report was left to the team leader. Shortly thereafter the physicist returned to the farm, saying to the farmer, "I have the solution, but it works only in the case of spherical cows in a vacuum."

And these were (as the tale goes) qualified folks. What are your thermodynamic qualifications?

 

[user 6228]

https://fluids.leeds.ac.uk/2021/09/24/lifd-early-career-researcher-spotlight-derek-mitchell/
using simple electrical circuits as analogues for thermal problems is well established and gives good numerical results. Bergman TL, Lavine AS. 2017 Fundamentals of Heat and Mass Transfer 8th Edition. 8th edn. Wiley. (doi:10.1016/j.applthermaleng.2011.03.022)

I dont consider simple ohms law stuff blinding anyone with science, it is only keystage 4 science.(14-16 year old)

 

[Beesnaturally]

in winter how does a bee control nest humidity via ventilation in a thin wooden box or openreach junction box ?

it has limited powers outside the cluster, but... that's the whole point of the cluster. The cluster is a climate control machine.

It does however have limited powers. This is most evident in small colonies.

And it is very much affected by extremes of cold and damp. As are we all.

 

[Erichalfbee]

View attachment 35222

Maybe something like that is the reason my broadband is rubbish

 

[Beesnaturally]

https://fluids.leeds.ac.uk/2021/09/24/lifd-early-career-researcher-spotlight-derek-mitchell/

ok, interesting: but I think, with apologies, you are on a fool's errand. Wall heatloss ratings simply don't make much difference because of the front door issue. If that were not the case then we'd see a lot more walling around entrances to control the draft. The only time I've seen that happening much at all is in small colonies that need better control over robbing.

I overwinter (daytime) in a sunless valley, with a cold-air catchment of perhaps 10 square miles. The temperature here is generally 2-3 degrees colder than on the higher ground where I sleep. 12 years ago it was a tin-roofed (and cavity-walled) building that was permanently damp in winter, and the same temperature as outdoors. I couldn't work in it, no matter how well dressed for more than a couple of hours before I needed to get in the car and recover. I built a block room inside that was warmable with a fan heater. Much better, but not great. Next I built a small office, and insulated just reasonably well as I went. Much better still, but suffered from a concrete floor and being laden with cold metal. Then I made my new office; a celotex box - not even plaster-boarded - with two modern plastic laminate external doors. Brilliant. But:

If I leave just one of those doors ajar to the unheated damp workspace outside, the heater has to run permanently, and I'm in a cold draft and can't work at my computer.
I have, as you can see, some experience here. And the lesson is: it doesn't matter how good the insulation is, if you have constant ingress of freezing air you might as well not have it.

With apologies again: I think you might have thought about that before setting out to prove that trees make better homes.

As I have said: I've done the matchstick thing - perhaps 30 or 40 hives. I did it for two years running. It seemed to make little difference, but it stands to reason more ventilation will usually lead to less dampness.

 

[JamezF]

View attachment 35222

I've removed a colony from one of those, too. That was one of my least pleasant ones

James

 

[user 6228]

ok, interesting: but I think, with apologies, you are on a fool's errand. Wall heatloss ratings simply don't make much difference because of the front door issue. If that were not the case then we'd see a lot more walling around entrances to control the draft. The only time I've seen that happening much at all is in small colonies that need better control over robbing.

I suggest you read Mitchell D. 2016 Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. Int. J. Biometeorol. 60, 629–638. (doi:10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z)

I overwinter (daytime) in a sunless valley, with a cold-air catchment of perhaps 10 square miles. The temperature here is generally 2-3 degrees colder than on the higher ground where I sleep. 12 years ago it was a tin-roofed (and cavity-walled) building that was permanently damp in winter, and the same temperature as outdoors. I couldn't work in it, no matter how well dressed for more than a couple of hours before I needed to get in the car and recover. I built a block room inside that was warmable with a fan heater. Much better, but not great. Next I built a small office, and insulated just reasonably well as I went. Much better still, but suffered from a concrete floor and being laden with cold metal. Then I made my new office; a celotex room - not even plaster-boarded, with two modern plastic laminate external doors. Brilliant. But:

If I leave just one of those doors ajar to the unheated damp workspace outside, the heater has to run permanently, and I'm in a cold draft and can't work at my computer.
I have, as you can see, some experience here. And the lesson is: it doesn't matter how good the insulation is, if you have constant ingress of freezing air you might as well not have it.

if you left your room via a trapdoor you would have less of a problem. The whole thing is covered in Mitchell D. 2017 Honey bee engineering: Top ventilation and top entrances. Am. Bee J. 157, 887–889. Your room with its tall door is like a top entrance hive

 

[Mint Bee]

That's an odd choice of words. Perhaps its a technical use I'm unfamiliar with?

5/8" or so of DRY cedar supplies fairly good insulation, but, again, given the open door, the temperature inside the hive will be barely greater than that outside. There will be wind shelter, and perhaps the odd couple of degrees of temperature rise will take the edge of the humidity on damp days. In other words the air inside is virtually 'serial' with the air outside but possibly a little dryer. This will depend entirely on the ventilation that modulated air change.

A dry wooden wall will however reflect infrared radiation - if that helps; and the possibility of lowered humidity will help keep the wall dry.

The cluster is the bit that matters most. That's where 99% of the climate control is happening (wind-chill aside)

Yeah, that's either over-techical language, or gobbledegook. I think I can see what you mean but I suspect you are trying to blind us with sciency language.


"Milk production at a dairy farm was low, so the farmer wrote to the local university, asking for help from academia. A multidisciplinary team of professors was assembled, headed by a theoretical physicist, and two weeks of intensive on-site investigation took place. The scholars then returned to the university, notebooks crammed with data, where the task of writing the report was left to the team leader. Shortly thereafter the physicist returned to the farm, saying to the farmer, "I have the solution, but it works only in the case of spherical cows in a vacuum."

And these were qualified folks. What are your thermodynamic qualifications?

says the guy with a degree in a humanities