Cheap insulated hive ?

[pargyle]

I know that I briefly mentioned Bill Summers Zest Hive a few days ago on an unrelated thread but I've been thinking about it ever since I heard his talk last week. What intrigued me was the following:

The national sized but very deep frames that he uses in the hive appeared to be well populated by the bees .. right down to the bottom. In fact, from the photos he showed us they start working on each of the three foundationless sections at the same time ... On my 14 x 12's (also foundationless) frames the bees start at the top and build the comb down to fill the whole frame eventually but could I improve on this by inserting a horizontal bar half way down the frame ?

The other thing that caught my imagination (and bear in mind that I like my Long Deep Hive a lot and my experience has been that the bees like it too) was the ease with which a well insulated hive could be constructed using lightweight Celcon insulation blocks. These are normally used in construction to provide the inner thermal skin or internal walls in modern buildings, they are very light and have tremendous insulation properties: The Celcon website gives the following properties.

Low wear and tear
Water-resistant
Frost-resistant
Does not rot or decay
Excellent ballistic impact performance
Is not susceptible to insect attack

http://www.hhcelcon.co.uk/files/download/35-Non-Housing.pdf

All Bill does is put a couple of paving slabs down, a couple of concrete blocks with some dpc on top provide the structure to support the timber that supports the floor and the floor and walls are just made with loose laid lightweight blocks - even the crown board is celcon blocks ! A piece of corrugated roofing material forms the 'roof' and his extra extra deep frames sit inside ... simples ... He runs his hives in the same way as I run my LDH.

I recognise that it is not a movable hive so it will only lend itself to those people who would just like a hive or two in the garden .. it's crush and strain for the honey but, again, for those who just want a few jars for themselves and friends/family that's not an issue.

Although Bill does sell bits of the hive there's nothing there that cannot be knocked up in no time at all ..... A box of his new plastic frames is going to be £26.40 for 12 might be an investment.

I commend the idea to the house ... what do you think ?

I would add that I'm nothing to do with Bill Summers or his hive - just find it an interesting concept.

 

[itma]

"Lightweight" is to be taken relatively - the lightest single Celcon block weighs 5kg ... !
http://www.hhcelcon.co.uk/files/download/64-TSD43-Weights-of-Celcon-Blocks--Blockwork.pdf

And, compared to non-structural building insulation (expanded polystyrene, let alone Kingspan, etc), I don't think the insulation of a breeze block is all that good either.

 

[Cussword]

I wanted to ask about the zest hive. With dead bees & Varroa drop how do you clean the bottom?

 

[user 6228]

thermally the concept was flawed when I saw it a couple of years ago and discussed it with him.

The blocks are unsealed. Its top entrance.
The blocks will rapidly water log and lose insulation properites. the top entrance will lose all the heat.


The solar grade blocks have a good low conductivity sbout the same as cedar... ( be careful other grade blocks have 3 times the conductivity)
problem is keeping it dry and not letting the heat out at the top.

see http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11947

 

[Nige.Coll]

I met this guy at the Honey Show last year.
His idea is good cheap hives he had frames made from bamboo canes when i saw him.
Only problem i found was it all fell apart when you need to move hives or manage them for honey production. Although he tried to convince me you could add supers.
It's a tbh that cannot be moved.
Not for me..
Could work in africa with mud bricks though.

 

[pargyle]

"Lightweight" is to be taken relatively - the lightest single Celcon block weighs 5kg ... !
http://www.hhcelcon.co.uk/files/download/64-TSD43-Weights-of-Celcon-Blocks--Blockwork.pdf

And, compared to non-structural building insulation (expanded polystyrene, let alone Kingspan, etc), I don't think the insulation of a breeze block is all that good either.

The Blocks that he uses are not Celcon as I thought (My mistake) - they are Durox Aircrete which (as I witnessed at his talk) are so light you can pick them up with a finger and thumb. Nowhere near 5Kg. They are not breeze blocks and apparently are super thermally efficient.

I wanted to ask about the zest hive. With dead bees & Varroa drop how do you clean the bottom?

Because it has space for around 25 frames (depending on how you build it) there is usually spare space in the hive and as it's a solid floor you just move the frames along to create a space and then sweep any debris up. The bees will remove any dead bees in the same way that they do in my top entrance Long deep hive - incredibly tenacious when they are cleaning up. As for Varroa drop - Bill has had some hives that have had a zero varroa drop and others where the varroa load is demonstrably low, although he considers this as a side benefit and was not part of the original plan. I have to say that I have a similarly low varroa count in my LDH (untreated and going into third season) so I am swayed a little by this claim.

thermally the concept was flawed when I saw it a couple of years ago and discussed it with him.

The blocks are unsealed. Its top entrance.
The blocks will rapidly water log and lose insulation properites. the top entrance will lose all the heat.

This was a point that was raised at the talk ... his co-presenter (anpother Zest hive beekeeper) actually paints the outside of the blocks with masonry paint but there have been tests done with these blocks and water penetration is not immense and they dry out very rapidly. Bear in mind there is an overlapping roof and only the outer surface of the blocks are 'exposed' they are not being immersed.

The top entrances are very small and Bill says that they can be closed off but I'm with you on this point - my entrance is at the top of my hive but has a periscope to prevent heat loss at the top.



The solar grade blocks have a good low conductivity sbout the same as cedar... ( be careful other grade blocks have 3 times the conductivity)
problem is keeping it dry and not letting the heat out at the top.

see http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11947

Well ... not a lot in that thread that I didn't already say in my post. The comments about the cost are pretty unfounded as he is happy for anyone to build one of their own - he has a copyright on Zest Hive so you can't claim 'Honey from Zest Hive' without infringing his copyright unless you actually are using a Zest hive but he really was not trying to 'sell' anything - just putting forward his ideas and what he has found. Part of his concept was to create a low cost hive and if you look at it from a point of view of making it all yourself it's no more expensive than your Kingspan hives as far as I can see.

I'm not going to even attempt to discuss thermal properties with you Derek as you are way out of my league .. I do share some of your concerns but I think, with some modifications, I would be interested in setting one up.

Initial thoughts are using the blocks as an insulation layer around a timber liner, a mesh floor with a 'drawer' underneath like my other hives and a 'proper' roof and crownboard arrangement. I recognise that this dilutes, to some extent, the original concept but ... who knows ? Perhaps the bees will like it .....

 

[pargyle]

I met this guy at the Honey Show last year.
His idea is good cheap hives he had frames made from bamboo canes when i saw him.
Only problem i found was it all fell apart when you need to move hives or manage them for honey production. Although he tried to convince me you could add supers.
It's a tbh that cannot be moved.
Not for me..
Could work in africa with mud bricks though.

His new frames are plastic moulded and look a lot more robust than the earlier bamboo prototypes ... The hives are intended to be static - not something you can move. Honey (as in my - and many other - Long Hives) is taken off a frame at a time during the season as the bees fill them - it's never going to produce the honey harvest of a vertically arranged hive with supers on it but for someone who just wants a few jars for themselves and their families .. it could be enough. It's not a top bar hive - it has frames and you manage it in the same way as any other 'Dartington' style LDH.

 

[Nige.Coll]

His new frames are plastic moulded and look a lot more robust than the earlier bamboo prototypes ... The hives are intended to be static - not something you can move. Honey (as in my - and many other - Long Hives) is taken off a frame at a time during the season as the bees fill them - it's never going to produce the honey harvest of a vertically arranged hive with supers on it but for someone who just wants a few jars for themselves and their families .. it could be enough. It's not a top bar hive - it has frames and you manage it in the same way as any other 'Dartington' style LDH.

I thought it was a good idea but just not for me or maybe this country.
I can't see it catching on here.
Would work well in a third world country they could make mud bricks for it.

 

[pargyle]

I thought it was a good idea but just not for me or maybe this country.
I can't see it catching on here.
Would work well in a third world country they could make mud bricks for it.

I agree ... it's not going to be a contender for a mainstream UK - or even North European - hive but ... it has some merits and I find it interesting.

 

[Nige.Coll]

I agree ... it's not going to be a contender for a mainstream UK - or even North European - hive but ... it has some merits and I find it interesting.

Me too i spent over an hour with him lol. Found him very interesting and passionate about his product.
The blocks used to make the hives were irrelevant really they could be made of anything.
Ideal for some countries where comb honey was the only harvest and wood is in short supply.

edit,
After watching the threads here about the bees in africa where they didn't have a saw or power tools this type hive would be great.
make some mud blocks and dry them in the sun add a few plastic/bamboo frames a bit of tin sheet and bingo you have a long hive with a comb honey harvest.
Easily made with what they have at hand.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Could work in africa with mud bricks though.

Until it rains - and boy, does it rain!

 

[Hivemaker.]

Could work in africa with mud bricks though.

Or these....[ame="http://www.amazon.com/96pc-Jumbo-Blocks-Standard-Made/dp/B004Z8S20S/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_0_1"]Amazon.com: 96pc Jumbo Blocks - Standard Set (Made in the USA): Toys & Games[/ame]

 

[REDWOOD]

.......... Although with some super glue and expanding foam you might be onto something there, It would certainly give a true definition of an entrance block

 

[REDWOOD]

You could even get the kid to build them for you

 

[Erichalfbee]

Like this?

 

[REDWOOD]

And he looks so real

 

[pargyle]

And he looks so real

And stuck in the 1970's when Lego was invented !!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I liked his toy story but the other two are a complete waste of space

 

[REDWOOD]

Russians make their own poly hives, they are an ingenious lot and made hot wire cutting tables that cuts the poly sheet perfectly. They paint the inside a dark colour so condensation hits the walls and not the frames. (allegedly). Some coat the out side with fiber glass matting and resin to protect them from birds

 

[Nige.Coll]

A lego hive would be amazing lol
I love lego.
Would they sponsor such a thing hmmmmm.