BS National Deep Honey Supers?

Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum

Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:

Bee-Key-Pur 

Field Bee
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
909
Reaction score
0
Location
Normal for Norfolk.
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
1+
Has anyone on the forum had any experience using BS National deeps for honey supers?

Are there any advantages or disadvantages over and above the obvious, i.e. extra weight, possibly more honey!!!

Brian.
 

drstitson 

Queen Bee
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
7,655
Reaction score
2
Location
surrey, lincolnshire etc.
Hive Type
dadant
Number of Hives
14
as far as i see it there are two major disadvantages - 1. weight of each frame when full and weight of full box, 2. increased chance of comb breaking during extraction.
 

VEG 

Queen Bee
Beekeeping Sponsor
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
6,822
Reaction score
3
Location
Maesteg South Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
15+-some
I used a brood box for a honey super on a friends hive this season it took the two of us to lift it off is was so heavy, never again.
 

Finman 

Queen Bee
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
26,412
Reaction score
772
Location
Finland, Helsinki
Hive Type
langstroth
.
I use Langstroth brood boxes as supers. No problem.

If the brood combs are too full of honey, they are easy to lift up and give empty combs queen to lay.
That is one system of preventing swarming.

To me it is easier menthaly to lift heavy supers than empty ones.
 

MuswellMetro 

Queen Bee
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
6,523
Reaction score
28
Location
London N10
Hive Type
14x12
Has anyone on the forum had any experience using BS National deeps for honey supers?


Brian.
does your extractor take large frames, mine does not

if it does it is most likley a tangental extractors and tangential extractors are more likey to break a large comb due to the sideways force on the wax


then you end up with mess of wax and honey, not nice

why not go for a rose OSB hive
 

Hivemaker. 

Queen Bee
Beekeeping Sponsor
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
14,286
Reaction score
14
Location
Exmoor.
Hive Type
national
.
I use Langstroth brood boxes as supers. No problem.

If the brood combs are too full of honey, they are easy to lift up and give empty combs queen to lay.
That is one system of preventing swarming.

To me it is easier menthaly to lift heavy supers than empty ones.
I agree with Finman,all same size frames a good advantage for many reasons.
I still use some shallows for heather work, and if adding late in the season when needed.
I am also very fond of lifting brood box's when they are full,no problem at all with that...lol.
 
Last edited:

blackbrood 

House Bee
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Messages
304
Reaction score
0
Location
UK
Hive Type
national
I want all my boxes to be the same size , so I am trying using brood as supers, important bit next though, I am new to all this and have not had a full season doing it so it might be folly.

The pluses for me are that you can move frames of honey in to the brood boxes for example if stores are required in a weaker colony for instance.

As for weight, why move an entire box when you decant frames individually. So IMO weight shouldnt be a problem. If it is though why not use all supers instead of all brood?

You can use any box or frame for any job, not have one set of boxes for supers and another set of boxes for another job. so hopefully have less equipment but still enough

I would not think you will get any more honey just because you have put a larger box on though.

If you intend to go down this route I suggest reading Tim Rowes book "the Rose Hive Method" (click here for a link to the book on a site). He advocates using one box size but using his hive design. IMO the hive boxes you use are irrevelant as the concept can be applied to any hive IE nationals, commercials, langstrof etc...

I have read the book and I found it interesting and informative
 
Last edited:

blackbrood 

House Bee
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Messages
304
Reaction score
0
Location
UK
Hive Type
national
oh and this site might interest you, It is an American chap who uses one box size and there are all kinds of musings on his site. well worth a read for inspirations, ideas and some one elses phylosophy click here
 

Finman 

Queen Bee
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
26,412
Reaction score
772
Location
Finland, Helsinki
Hive Type
langstroth
.
Actually I have a system that I have in summer 3 Langstroth brood box and 4-6 medium supers. But it is practical mix them if demanded.

They are heavy to lift up and down on the level or hair.

Dont make this issue too difficult. It depends how much you have power in your biceps brachii (9 pic) and if your you have not back pains.



 

Poly Hive 

Queen Bee
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
13,717
Reaction score
61
Location
Scottish Borders
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
12 and 18 Nucs
some fallacies being punted on this thread already.

I used to extract Heather from both National and Langstroth frames, tangentially in a swing basket extractor, and because my frames were wired for it it was not an issue in general, as in no more breakages than was acceptable.

My frames were made up with wired foundation and then wired again with four lines of wire horizontally configured.

I wonder how keen you are going to be to take out individual frames when the colony is roused and not best pleased. The advantage of a normal super is you can treat it as a unit.

On the surface having all the same boxes is very appealing but like all things that on the surface are very appealing but are NOT the NORM, one really really might want to ask why they are not the norm?


PH
 

mbc 

Queen Bee
Beekeeping Sponsor
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
6,178
Reaction score
763
Location
bestest wales
Hive Type
national
To my mind the major dissadvantage of using deep boxes as supers is that in short, patchy flows, the bees ( at least my bees in my locality ) quite often dont manage to fill deep frames whereas, with shallow supers they can usually fill and cap them
 

Finman 

Queen Bee
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
26,412
Reaction score
772
Location
Finland, Helsinki
Hive Type
langstroth
I wonder how keen you are going to be to take out individual frames when the colony is roused and not best pleased. The advantage of a normal super is you can treat it as a unit.


PH
I try to handle super boxes as a unit and I do pick individual frames to be extracted. Next time they are again out of bapance and you should pick them.

But if I have couple of brood frames in between honey frames and some full honey frames in the middle of brood box, it is wise to put brood frames down and honey frames up. Be plexiple and do what seems handy.
 

blackbrood 

House Bee
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Messages
304
Reaction score
0
Location
UK
Hive Type
national
On the surface having all the same boxes is very appealing but like all things that on the surface are very appealing but are NOT the NORM, one really really might want to ask why they are not the norm? PH
Just because some thing has always been done one way does not mean it is the best way.

For thousands of years removable frames were not used but then some one came up with that concept and hey presto that's where we are today. I seriously doubt whether every one moved on to removable frames in a 12 month time space more likely it will have took decades for the over whelming majority to make the shift.

or look at it this way...

I know from your comments on the forum that you are an advocate and user of poly hives but they are not the norm. Now ask yourself why?
 

Finman 

Queen Bee
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
26,412
Reaction score
772
Location
Finland, Helsinki
Hive Type
langstroth
To my mind the major dissadvantage of using deep boxes as supers is that in short, patchy flows, the bees ( at least my bees in my locality ) quite often dont manage to fill deep frames whereas, with shallow supers they can usually fill and cap them


That is one advantage. Low frames become sooner capped and you may give back empty combs.

During flow bees need 3 boxes to make one capped box. So to get 2 capped box bees need 4 boxes more where they rippen the nectar.
 

mbc 

Queen Bee
Beekeeping Sponsor
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
6,178
Reaction score
763
Location
bestest wales
Hive Type
national
That is one advantage. Low frames become sooner capped and you may give back empty combs.

During flow bees need 3 boxes to make one capped box. So to get 2 capped box bees need 4 boxes more where they rippen the nectar.
A point often missed at beginners courses and also in a number of supposedly comprehensive books
 

Poly Hive 

Queen Bee
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
13,717
Reaction score
61
Location
Scottish Borders
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
12 and 18 Nucs
I find in life Blackbrood that the usual way is often the better way as it has been refined over time.

The discussion you have initiated here is not a new one and has been discussed I suppose ever since movable hives were invented.

One of the serious questions you should ask yourself and it is a very serious question in the UK is why the majority use shallows for supers. Is it for fun, no.

It is because we in the UK suffer from very poor weather compared to many other beekeeping countries where flows are reasonably regular and predictable.

Ours are not and the bees seem, (in general) to seal over shallows far better than deeps, and I can confirm that from my years on the heather. Super frames waxed over as neat as you please and the broods left open waiting for the flow that never came which in turn meant water content had to be managed carefully not to mention accurately.

Yes I am at the "cutting edge" with poly but only in the hide bound traditional UK, a lot of Europeans use them as the standard type.

There are a lot of pitfalls to using deeps as supers, though I think I have highlighted one of the most serious. Not to mention getting cut comb is nigh impossible.

However never get between a fools rush and a cliff.

PH
 

Poly Hive 

Queen Bee
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
13,717
Reaction score
61
Location
Scottish Borders
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
12 and 18 Nucs
I always teach a min of three supers, and preferably four by reason of space to hang out nectar to dry per colony.

One thing that catches out the beginner and for that matter some more experienced people is just how fast a colony can move.

I have seen three supers filled and sealed in under a week. So what do you clear them off into?

PH
 

Hivemaker. 

Queen Bee
Beekeeping Sponsor
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
14,286
Reaction score
14
Location
Exmoor.
Hive Type
national
Not to mention getting cut comb is nigh impossible.

I like the sound of that....means i have now managed to achieve (on many occasions)what was thought of as almost impossible.
 

Bee-Key-Pur 

Field Bee
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
909
Reaction score
0
Location
Normal for Norfolk.
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
1+
The weight is not a problem for me and my extractor can take the frames ok and if the foundation is wired i'm sure that will help.
As mentioned above, I was also thinking along the lines of making things easy for splits and being able to move the same size frames around to give winter stores if needed. Plus when deep supers are not in use, they would be available to use as a brood box should a situation arise.

Brian
 

VEG 

Queen Bee
Beekeeping Sponsor
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Messages
6,822
Reaction score
3
Location
Maesteg South Wales
Hive Type
national
Number of Hives
15+-some
Bee-key-per I see from your details you are going to expand very quickly. I dont have a bad back and for that reason alone I wont use another brood as a super, as I found it very heavy. It is ok to move the odd one or two but if you are going for 20+ hives that will be a lot of heavy lifting if you are going to use just broods. I would try it on a few hives first then you will get to see if you can cope with them.
 

Latest posts

Top