Brood, brood and a 1/2 or double brood box

[Jonathan01]

I know it's early days yet, but it looks like my colonies are going to make it through the winter - some incredibly well!

On the warm days we have had here in Lancashire recently, a couple of the colonies have even started bearding on the landing board!

Given how packed some of the colonies are, I am thinking about extra space for some of them. I thought, as a temporary measure, start by putting a super under the brood box just to give them space for the next month or so, but what about when spring has truly sprung?

Should I be increasing some hives from my usual 'single brood' to either 'brood and a 1/2' or even a 'double brood' box.

What is the general feeling? What do you do? Stick to the one brood box?

Or, give additional brood space and if so how much?
- Will the extra brood space not result in a lower honey crop?
- Does a good queen really need that additional laying space? Won't the bees just backfill with honey?
- Does the extra brood space help much with swarm delay? Won't piling on the supers, above the QE, do the same?
- I was thinking of a double brood box (on my two strongest colonies) and then using that for a stronger split and reverting to a single brood for the rest of the season.

I understand that many of these manipulations are probably 6-8 weeks away, but I would like to get equipment ready for when the action starts.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Whatever the answer - Brood and a half is not it.

 

[Repwoc]

I know it's early days yet, but it looks like my colonies are going to make it through the winter - some incredibly well!

On the warm days we have had here in Lancashire recently, a couple of the colonies have even started bearding on the landing board!

Given how packed some of the colonies are, I am thinking about extra space for some of them. I thought, as a temporary measure, start by putting a super under the brood box just to give them space for the next month or so, but what about when spring has truly sprung?

Should I be increasing some hives from my usual 'single brood' to either 'brood and a 1/2' or even a 'double brood' box.

What is the general feeling? What do you do? Stick to the one brood box?

Or, give additional brood space and if so how much?
- Will the extra brood space not result in a lower honey crop?
- Does a good queen really need that additional laying space? Won't the bees just backfill with honey?
- Does the extra brood space help much with swarm delay? Won't piling on the supers, above the QE, do the same?
- I was thinking of a double brood box (on my two strongest colonies) and then using that for a stronger split and reverting to a single brood for the rest of the season.

I understand that many of these manipulations are probably 6-8 weeks away, but I would like to get equipment ready for when the action starts.

Congratulations on your success so far.

Have you checked out JBM's Demaree method? Demaree

 

[pargyle]

They are all very relevant questions you should be asking yourself... quite rightly now - before you HAVE to do something. As you say still some weeks away but with standard national boxes and prolific bees you may need to give them more space in the brood box to accommodate them. Whether you go brood and a half or double brood is a matter of personal choice... both work but having the same frames in double brood is a benefit but I know a lot who prefer B + 1/2.
As for now ...its very early to be doing anything...they sound healthy... swarm preps wont be for a few weeks yet and you can do artificial swarms when the need arises so as long as you have spare kit and inspect regularly you should catch the situation. You probably need to check the brood box at your first inspection for excess stores ... if you have been feeding them over winter you may find too much left in there.. remove excess frames of honey and just leave them enough for a couple of weeks ..replace these frames with drawn comb if you have any or frames with foundation (in my case foundationless frames). Keep an eye on things ... heft or weigh... if they are light on stores there is more danger from starvation than swarming in March.

 

[Apple]

Depends upon what you want... what bees you have and what forage they have,, and the seasonal variability!

I use brood + 1/2 all of the time with standard Nationals as it allows me to move filled honey super sized frames up above the qx into the center of the honey super above the qx.. and put undrawn foundation into the B+1/2 box... of course making sure there are no brood int he frame being moved up.

This technique I picked up from a very experienced honey farmer here in Cornwall where sometimes we do not have the fantastic nectar flows claimed by some in other areas... and with Cornish Amm.....

Some colonies I allow to go double brood and either do as above with the honey boxes, or use to make a split.

I also have an apiary with solely Rose OSB hives..... just put another box on top as the bees need it!

Have also tried the 14x12 abomination format of frames and Commercials and Langstroths......

Eventually after a few years of keeping bees you will settle for what works in your area for you and the type of bees you have,

Chons da

 

[The Poot]

Having gone the brood and a half route with a couple of mine, I have experienced the constraints it brings with two sizes of frames in the brood area. I would suggest double brood as a better way forward if your bees are prolific.
Certainly sounds a promising position to be in.

 

[pargyle]

And yet ... I much prefer 14 x12 and I think it's a box size that meets the requirements of modern hybrid bees and I never need to go to brood and a half to give them brood space as they already have it ... rather than the abomination of brood and a half. See ... trouble is ... ask 5 beekeepers the same question and you will get six different answers - most of them right in one way or another.

Choices are often based on personal preferences...

 

[Jonathan01]

Congratulations on your success so far.

Have you checked out JBM's Demaree method? Demaree

Thanks for the link. I have read it a couple of times now - n ot sure I fully understand what's going on here; but there is time for me to get my head around it. Cheers.

 

[Apple]

Thanks for the link. I have read it a couple of times now - n ot sure I fully understand what's going on here; but there is time for me to get my head around it. Cheers.

Look on the Dave Cushman site and follow the links to "Artificial Swarm"....
Some beekeepers seem to be empowered by using flashy terminology.... they have to learn them to take all the modules and get all the certificates to become a Master Beekeeper!

 

[rolande]

Brood and half is often dismissed as it reduces flexibility when it comes to moving combs around the brood area. .... I'm inclined to think that anything which reduces the amount of comb fiddling some people do is probably a good thing.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Whatever the answer - Brood and a half is not it.

I agree, and as Poot said, this set-up limits your brood management options; it also gives you the work of double brood but without the full space benefit.

Does a good queen really need that additional laying space? Won't the bees just backfill with honey?

If you plonk a BB on top of the first during a flow they're likely to use it as a super but a better plan is to split the nest vertically into both boxes.

Put open brood in the top box - heat from sealed below will help it - sealed directly below and and fill both boxes either side with comb or foundation; super as necessary.

Does the extra brood space help much with swarm delay? Won't piling on the supers, above the QE, do the same?

Yes, it will and no, it won't. Easiest way to flick the swarm switch is to deprive the Q of laying space and it's a one-way switch.

Give brood space as needed until the main flow and then look to reduce it. For example, put the Q in the bottom box, then a QX, then 2nd BB and supers. Once the brood has emerged in the top BB you'll have a box of honey and 11 good combs.

Piling on supers will not give brood space and to build a spring workforce to make the most of a summer flow the Q must be given early opportunity to lay to her max.

I was thinking of a double brood box (on my two strongest colonies) and then using that for a stronger split and reverting to a single brood for the rest of the season.

Seems fine.

Some years ago I thought 14x12 was the answer but reverted eventually to multiples of lighter standard deeps. Although 14x12 gives 41% more comb space than a deep, what happens if that isn't enough? Add another, and shift it with 70lbs of honey on board?

14x12 may answer a need for space if your queens match the box but if they're variable or if you use good Buckfast or Carniolan then that box will either be too much or not enough.

A hive is like an accordion - it stretches vertically and horizontally - and until June the bees' sheet music reads presto (very, very fast) and you must play as instructed. A light and modular system will make work easier and give greatest freedom of management, and you may end up this summer with some on three or more.

PS: have a look at Tim Rowe's flexible method of building big colonies using brood boxes (at 3mins) and his book.

 

[pargyle]

Some years ago I thought 14x12 was the answer but reverted eventually to multiples of lighter standard deeps. Although 14x12 gives 41% more comb space than a deep, what happens if that isn't enough? Add another, and shift it with 70lbs of honey on board?

14x12 may answer a need for space if your queens match the box but if they're variable or if you use good Buckfast or Carniolan then that box will either be too much or not enough.

A hive is like an accordion - it stretches vertically and horizontally - and until June the bees' sheet music reads presto (very, very fast) and you must play as instructed. A light and modular system will make work easier and give greatest freedom of management, and you may end up this summer with some on three or more.

Really good points and I can concur with everything you say ...

...but I run my 14 x 12's without queen excluders and what I find with some some colonies that are prolific is that they will extend the brood nexst into the middle section of the first super ... but this is only ever a temporary situation. Once the colony has established its desired mass the brood area returns to the brood box where there is sufficient space for the queen to lay maintenance levels of brood and they backfill the first super with honey ... I've had one colony where the queen was really rampant that almost filled a super with brood yet still by the middle of the season she was back down in the brood box and they were backfilling with honey.

I extract late and I've never faced a situation where there was brood in the supers.

The concertina analogy is a good one ... but there are numerous ways of providing that critical level of laying space ... and most of them work.

 

[Monbees]

Really good points and I can concur with everything you say ...

...but I run my 14 x 12's without queen excluders and what I find with some some colonies that are prolific is that they will extend the brood nexst into the middle section of the first super ... but this is only ever a temporary situation.

So, are your supers regular shallows?

 

[Jonathan01]

I agree, and as Poot said, this set-up limits your brood management options; it also gives you the work of double brood but without the full space benefit.
If you plonk a BB on top of the first during a flow they're likely to use it as super but a better plan is to split the nest vertically into both boxes.

Put open brood in the top box - heat from sealed below will help it - sealed directly below and and fill both boxes either side with comb or foundation; super as necessary.
Yes, it will and no, it won't. Easiest way to flick the swarm switch is to deprive the Q of laying space and it's a one-way switch.

Give brood space as needed until the main flow and then look to reduce it. For example, put the Q in the bottom box, then a QX, then 2nd BB and supers. Once the brood has emerged in the top BB you'll have a box of honey and 11 good combs.

Piling on supers will not give brood space and to build a spring workforce to make the most of a summer flow the Q must be given the early opportunity to lay to her max.

Seems fine.

Some years ago I thought 14x12 was the answer but reverted eventually to multiples of lighter standard deeps. Although 14x12 gives 41% more comb space than a deep, what happens if that isn't enough? Add another, and shift it with 70lbs of honey on board?

14x12 may answer a need for space if your queens match the box but if they're variable or if you use good Buckfast or Carniolan then that box will either be too much or not enough.

A hive is like an accordion - it stretches vertically and horizontally - and until June the bees' sheet music reads presto (very, very fast) and you must play as instructed. A light and modular system will make work easier and give greatest freedom of management, and you may end up this summer with some on three or more.

PS: have a look at Tim Rowe's flexible method of building big colonies using brood boxes (at 3mins) and his book.

Wow! Thanks for your comprehensive reply - found that really useful.

 

[Jonathan01]

Really good points and I can concur with everything you say ...

...but I run my 14 x 12's without queen excluders and what I find with some some colonies that are prolific is that they will extend the brood nexst into the middle section of the first super ... but this is only ever a temporary situation. Once the colony has established its desired mass the brood area returns to the brood box where there is sufficient space for the queen to lay maintenance levels of brood and they backfill the first super with honey ... I've had one colony where the queen was really rampant that almost filled a super with brood yet still by the middle of the season she was back down in the brood box and they were backfilling with honey.

I extract late and I've never faced a situation where there was brood in the supers.

The concertina analogy is a good one ... but there are numerous ways of providing that critical level of laying space ... and most of them work.

I have heard of keepers not using QEs and really interested to note that in your experience, the queen prefers to lay in the brood box (when maintaining bee numbers). Would this be the case right through until the autumn. When would removed all supers for varroa treatment and winter. I am tempted to give this a try on one of my hives this year, see how it goes.

 

[pargyle]

So, are your supers regular shallows?

Yes ... just normal Paynes Poly supers.

 

[gmonag]

If only there were a method that doesn't need a QE, uses one size of box and gives the space and flexibilty that the bees want....

 

[pargyle]

I have heard of keepers not using QEs and really interested to note that in your experience, the queen prefers to lay in the brood box (when maintaining bee numbers). Would this be the case right through until the autumn. When would removed all supers for varroa treatment and winter. I am tempted to give this a try on one of my hives this year, see how it goes.

I think it's more a case of once they start bringing in nectar in quantity they store it mainly in an arc above the brood nest and eventually the arc fills the space in the super where the queen has been laying and she has no alternative but to move down and lay in the brood box - not a choice thing or any preference by the queen. The queen does not choose where she lays, she is directed to the area of cells where she has to lay by her entourage and the only choice she has is her ability to test the cell for cleanliness and that it meets with her approval - for instancem if there is a cell where there is a frame wire in it she will test and reject - but outside of that ... she does as she is bid. If the committee think they need the super for honey then they won't redirect her to that area once the brood has emerged.

I tend to put my second super in place once the first one is getting well filled. You could, if you wish, put a queen excluder between the first and the second to make sure there is no chance of her laying in a chimney up the centre but I've never bothered and I've not had a problem in that respect.

I remove my supers in a single crop - quite late by comparison to other beekeepers - early September normally. But .. I don't treat my bees for varroa so I don't have to get them off early in order to use varroacides that would contaminate the honey. By then there is never any brood left in the supers and normally it would be much earlier that she was down in the brood box. Of course, if you wanted to treat for varroa then you could leave the supers on until late as I do and then treat with OA by sublimation which does not require the warmer weather and time frames that thymol etc. require. Take the supers off late and put your vaping board on and treat them mid september - three times at 5 day intervals and your bees are ready for winter and your honey crop is in the settling tank ... simples.

 

[pargyle]

If only there were a method that doesn't need a QE, uses one size of box and gives the space and flexibilty that the bees want....

Well the Rose method has its advantages but if it was a perfect system then all beekeepers would be using it ...

I don't like the construction of the rose boxes although I've often thought of constructing a Rose type system with national size boxes and perhaps making them out of celotex or kingspan to meet the insulation requirements and also make for lighter boxes when they fill the upper boxes with honey. You still need an extractor that can cope with Rose size (or national) frames.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Well the Rose method has its advantages but if it was a perfect system then all beekeepers would be using it ...

I don't like the construction of the rose boxes although I've often thought of constructing a Rose type system with national size boxes and perhaps making them out of celotex or kingspan to meet the insulation requirements and also make for lighter boxes when they fill the upper boxes with honey. You still need an extractor that can cope with Rose size (or national) frames.

When I pick up a decent swarm this year it will be dumped in a pile of supers to have a play with the Rose method using standard boxes.