British Black Bee

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would have thought that being precious about petty things like this is the reason that others can't take the subject seriously or with any respect.
can you honestly say that any of your bees are of 'pure blood'?
No, you can't, so local mongrel is as good and realistic a name as any and a bit of realism engenders a lot more respect from onlookers, as well as avoiding the perception of zealotry.

 

[Antipodes]

We have interesting black bee reserve here, up at Tarraleah. This article analyses the genetics of honeybees across this island.

https://www.nature.com/articles/hdy199546

 

[Murox]

Not the best of pictures - these two are are the same hive Jon Getty queen. Took a while to get going, weather was poor, but they took full advantage of the better forage at the farm apiary .

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would have thought that being precious about petty things like this is the reason that others can't take the subject seriously or with any respect.
can you honestly say that any of your bees are of 'pure blood'?
No, you can't, so local mongrel is as good and realistic a name as any and a bit of realism engenders a lot more respect from onlookers, as well as avoiding the perception of zealotry.

I agree. This is what comes of labelling one’s bees as something special. What on earth does it matter as long as they work for you? Does it matter if you have to feed some of them more than others if they suit in the end.

 

[Finman]

Can we stop calling them mongrels beowulf Cooper would be turning in his grave.

No, we cannot.

 

[Finman]

I agree. This is what comes of labelling one’s bees as something special. What on earth does it matter as long as they work for you? Does it matter if you have to feed some of them more than others if they suit in the end.

When I started beekeeping 60 years ago, every guy had their own special bees. It was pure love.

They were mostly hybrid black bees. No one bred black bees in those days. Hives used to have 2 boxes, the the yield was 15-20 kg.

 

[user 20297]

I agree. This is what comes of labelling one’s bees as something special. What on earth does it matter as long as they work for you? Does it matter if you have to feed some of them more than others if they suit in the end.

There seems to be a contingent among beekeepers who strongly desire uniformity and standardisation. We've seen that lately here where many people seem irked by the many and varied approaches there have been and will continue to be in respect of beehive design.
With bees, that same need for uniformity regularly recurs, often, (to say the least), getting people quite cross with each other.
The unpredictability and fickleness of bees contributes to the unmasterable mystery of beekeeping. I consider that the randomness and impossibility of ever being able to completely anticipate and then control the outcomes to be the root of my continued attraction and perseverance with the "art".

 

[Apiarist]

What sort of black bees are they?

What sort of "Italians" are they, Latin names might help, etc.

 

[Apiarist]

View attachment 29334

I would of thought you having near natives you would feel the same.
I agree with him.

Is that a page from Beowolf Cooper's (posthumously published) book?

Technically, isn't he wrong???

A mongrel is an unintentional and presumably unknown crossing,
he then goes on to say that this term can no more be applied to Britain/Ireland or Italy/France, that's not a fair comparison, due to the huge imports we've had just after the Isle of Wight Disease.

He also adds the phrase Old English (and by inference Irish?) Bee as misleading, while I don't see why, because our DNA analysis over here has revealed that the bees being kept by and called Native are descended from the Dutch imports post 1923, therefore referring to the bees present here before the huge imports as Old is quite reasonable and an easy way to identify what one is referring to?

And now I'm on this hair splitting subject (you can tell I can't sleep), his definition of Hybrid is questionable as well? Is it not an intentional crossing of two Breeds/Subspecies and it is only that first generation that is referred to as a Hybrid, subsequent ones are referred to as crossings...

... ah now I'm knit picking ... the effects of insomnia.

 

[Swarm]

That is great to hear. Were your bees tested as part of Dylan Elens study? His Sicamm talk was very interesting.

Samples from different apiaries. He wanted only locally reared, no daughters or grand daughters of an introduced queen.
Yes, it was great news but not for everyone by the look of the replies

 

[Erichalfbee]

If it's good news to you and what you've been working for then that's all that is important.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The unpredictability and fickleness of bees contributes to the unmasterable mystery of beekeeping. I consider that the randomness and impossibility of ever being able to completely anticipate and then control the outcomes to be the root of my continued attraction and perseverance with the "art".

Is why I am so keen to have a multicoloured apiary

 

[elainemary]

Not the best of pictures - these two are are the same hive Jon Getty queen. Took a while to get going, weather was poor, but they took full advantage of the better forage at the farm apiary .View attachment 29335 View attachment 29336

Great pic!

 

[Curly green finger's]

Is that a page from Beowolf Cooper's (posthumously published) book?

Technically, isn't he wrong???

A mongrel is an unintentional and presumably unknown crossing,
he then goes on to say that this term can no more be applied to Britain/Ireland or Italy/France, that's not a fair comparison, due to the huge imports we've had just after the Isle of Wight Disease.

He also adds the phrase Old English (and by inference Irish?) Bee as misleading, while I don't see why, because our DNA analysis over here has revealed that the bees being kept by and called Native are descended from the Dutch imports post 1923, therefore referring to the bees present here before the huge imports as Old is quite reasonable and an easy way to identify what one is referring to?

And now I'm on this hair splitting subject (you can tell I can't sleep), his definition of Hybrid is questionable as well? Is it not an intentional crossing of two Breeds/Subspecies and it is only that first generation that is referred to as a Hybrid, subsequent ones are referred to as crossings...

... ah now I'm knit picking ... the effects of insomnia.

Is that a page from Beowolf Cooper's (posthumously published) book?

Technically, isn't he wrong???

A mongrel is an unintentional and presumably unknown crossing,
he then goes on to say that this term can no more be applied to Britain/Ireland or Italy/France, that's not a fair comparison, due to the huge imports we've had just after the Isle of Wight Disease.

He also adds the phrase Old English (and by inference Irish?) Bee as misleading, while I don't see why, because our DNA analysis over here has revealed that the bees being kept by and called Native are descended from the Dutch imports post 1923, therefore referring to the bees present here before the huge imports as Old is quite reasonable and an easy way to identify what one is referring to?

And now I'm on this hair splitting subject (you can tell I can't sleep), his definition of Hybrid is questionable as well? Is it not an intentional crossing of two Breeds/Subspecies and it is only that first generation that is referred to as a Hybrid, subsequent ones are referred to as crossings...

... ah now I'm knit picking ... the effects of insomnia.

No your not knit picking

 

[Curly green finger's]

Not the best of pictures - these two are are the same hive Jon Getty queen. Took a while to get going, weather was poor, but they took full advantage of the better forage at the farm apiary .View attachment 29335 View attachment 29336

There crackers of photos very clear

 

[Curly green finger's]

I'm not

I would have thought that being precious about petty things like this is the reason that others can't take the subject seriously or with any respect.
can you honestly say that any of your bees are of 'pure blood'?
No, you can't, so local mongrel is as good and realistic a name as any and a bit of realism engenders a lot more respect from onlookers, as well as avoiding the perception of zealotry.

You know your stuff jbm !
I'm not Looking for respect and I will carry on calling them near natives or locals.
Mongrel imo is perfectly fitting for a cross bread dog.
But as you said I don't have pure blood bees but they are definitely more Amm than anything else and in time hopefully even more so.

 

[mbc]

Is that a page from Beowolf Cooper's (posthumously published) book?

Technically, isn't he wrong???

A mongrel is an unintentional and presumably unknown crossing,
he then goes on to say that this term can no more be applied to Britain/Ireland or Italy/France, that's not a fair comparison, due to the huge imports we've had just after the Isle of Wight Disease.

He also adds the phrase Old English (and by inference Irish?) Bee as misleading, while I don't see why, because our DNA analysis over here has revealed that the bees being kept by and called Native are descended from the Dutch imports post 1923, therefore referring to the bees present here before the huge imports as Old is quite reasonable and an easy way to identify what one is referring to?

And now I'm on this hair splitting subject (you can tell I can't sleep), his definition of Hybrid is questionable as well? Is it not an intentional crossing of two Breeds/Subspecies and it is only that first generation that is referred to as a Hybrid, subsequent ones are referred to as crossings...

... ah now I'm knit picking ... the effects of insomnia.

"our dna analysis over here "
Who is "our"?
Where is "here"?
And a link to the dna analysis would help make sense of this post.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't have pure blood bees but they are definitely more Amm than anything else

last year you were claiming they were italians

 

[Curly green finger's]

last year you were claiming they were italians

Italian locals are no more queen changes etc.

 

[mbc]

Is there any difference between Scottish, Irish, Welsh and English Amm? Apart from language.
Or are some more Amm than others?

Yes, there is massive variation in each subspecies of honey bee and specialisation can happen in remarkably small districts.
Griff Jenkins, a former chair of bibba, who kept bees not a million miles away from you Dani, in cwrtnewydd, described his bees as large brown ones.
The colonsay/ oronsay bees are said to be nigh on pure Amm as are very many from the recent Irish studies.
I'm not sure of any samples done with recent dna techniques from England or Wales that get the magic above 95% Amm dna heritage, I hope I'm wrong.
For my own bees, the last time they were sampled, what I considered to be near pure actually fell slightly short of 90% Amm and what I considered to be highly hybridised (with yellow banding on the abdomen) taken as a control sample only slightly less Amm than what I considered pure!
Wasn't Jo Widdecombe on here a while ago?
I'm sure he could shed light on the cornish Amm situation, those rame peninsula bees will have been prodded and poked nearly as much as Andrew Abrahams ones on the Scottish Islands.
Anyway, in my opinion only folk with curds for brains would want to disparage native bee breeding efforts just out of personal preference.