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rolande 

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You said, & I questioned: "we have never had native bees in nature". By nature, I assume you mean in the wild. You didn't mentione the UK & as you don't live there either I assumed you meant globally. Of course there have been & are native bees.
To avoid this thread getting anymore confused..... Finman was specifically (and clearly) replying to a claim by Lislarybees that the Finnish native subspecies had been wiped out. As Finman replied, they (Finland) never had a native subspecies of honeybee.
 

Erichalfbee 

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To avoid this thread getting anymore confused..... Finman was specifically (and clearly) replying to a claim by Lislarybees that the Finnish native subspecies had been wiped out. As Finman replied, they (Finland) never had a native subspecies of honeybee.
Thanks Rolande You’ve hopefully saved a lot of buzzing round in circles
 

RichardK 

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To avoid this thread getting anymore confused..... Finman was specifically (and clearly) replying to a claim by Lislarybees that the Finnish native subspecies had been wiped out. As Finman replied, they (Finland) never had a native subspecies of honeybee.
Thanks for clearing that up. You're absolutely right - I hadn't looked back far enough which was part of the reason why I didn't understand Finman. My apologies.
 

mbc 

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Richard. Do to start to teach me about evolution of bees. I do not believe anything, because I am able to use modern biological information.

Modern means knowledge less than 20 years old. Older knowledge is old. It was told that honeybee has been evolved in Europe and spreaded to Africa.

For example, I have told to the Great Britain, the native bee has not evolved on British Isles, because the whole area up to the Mediterranen coast was tundra. Tundra means that ground is permafrost ja vegetation is moss, small willow and birsch bushes ans some trees.
Many famous beekeepers have not been able to read that kind of knowledge from botany sector.

I have never believed or insisted, that you do not have had "native " bees. If you can read a bigger map of Europe than the British Isles, you see that a black bee belongs to the fauna of Europe. Other bee races are in the the South East Europe, and more races are in Near East and about 20 races in Africa.

The Species of honey bee is the same animal, and its living area is from South Africa to Germany. It is ONE animal species and nothing more. The nearest relative is Asian bee.

And now, every village in Ireland, in Wales and in England wants their own native village subspecies. I do not know about Scotland

And all bee races of Europe moved from Africa and from Near East when climate got warmer after Ice Ace.

Rickhard, why are you lost? There is no reason to that . These writings in this chain is mostly nonsense . Use your brain. That will save your.

We know quite much about bees' evolution since the bees' DNA has been revieled, but these beekepers' own stories mix the whole thing to the level of fairytales
The theory I read and quite liked as I thought it was plausible was that when the last ice age retreated over 10,000 years ago , the ancestors of Amm would have spread north from sheltered valleys where they'd persisted south of the snow line, the dordogne was conjectured as a possible northern outpost for honey bees to have clung on.
 

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As the honey bee evolved in Africa and spread from there, no honey bee is native .

Rather like humans.

No need for any further debate.
I'd assumed (incorrectly) that bees have always been...everywhere. I've just found an interesting article about a study done into genome variation in honey bees which points to the original origin as actually being Asia. Apparently they arrived around 300,000 years ago and spread across Europe & Africa. During the ice ages the population expanded in Africa but contracted in Europe. For those interested:
So it would seem we have to thank Asia for both the honey bee :) ....and the Asian Hornet :mad:!
 

madasafish 

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Great argument, would make for a very quiet world if everyone complied though.

It was said with tongue firmly in cheek.
Life would be so boring without (some) perpetual arguments!:love:
 

Finman 

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the ancestors of Amm would have spread north from sheltered valleys where they'd persisted south of the snow line, the dordogne was conjectured as a possible northern outpost for honey bees to have clung on.
Good heavens....

DNA test showed 20 years ago that Amm genes are nearest African bee genes.

If we have permafrost tundra, there are no sheltered valleys.

Last Ice Ace started 100 000 years ago and stopped 10 000 years ago.
 

0bee-1 

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Finman 

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Mitochondrial genomes illuminate the evolutionary history of the Western honey bee (Apis mellifera) - Scientific Reports this might also be of interest :) published in 2020 so pretty much upto date... an open access paper to free to download
" A. mellifera colonised Europe through at least two pathways, across the Strait of Gibraltar and via Asia Minor. "
Yes. Black bee arrived via Gibraltar from Marocco. Italian bee and its cousins came via Asia minor. That was noticed in 2003 when bees genome was mapped first time.

The research says, that classifying bees to subspecies is important to beekeepers, but in biological meaning things are different.
 
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Antipodes 

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It's interesting how insects and animals have moved around the world. All wonderful songbirds that you guys have in the UK and Europe apparently have come from Australia.....and then some of them like the Blackbird have been brought back again of course.:nono:

 

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It's interesting how insects and animals have moved around the world. All wonderful songbirds that you guys have in the UK and Europe apparently have come from Australia.....and then some of them like the Blackbird have been brought
Yes they have wings and they have their migration habits. Most I wonder humming birds, how long migration flights it can do in America.


Impossible to compare to honeybees. Swarms cannot fly very far over seas.
 

Finman 

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The theory I read and quite liked as I thought it was plausible was that when the last ice age retreated over 10,000 years ago , the ancestors of Amm would have spread north from sheltered valleys where they'd persisted south of the snow line, the dordogne was conjectured as a possible northern outpost for honey bees to have clung on.

Look at vegetation maps of ice ace.

You are right Queen Bee. Ice was widest
20 000 years ago and started to reduce. Finland's area started to appear 12 000 years ago. First the land was mostly under water. The land continues still rising in South Finland 3-5 mm/ year.
.
 
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mbc 

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Look at vegetation maps of ice ace.

You are right Queen Bee. Ice was widest
20 000 years ago and started to reduce. Finland's area started to appear 12 000 years ago. First the land was mostly under water. The land continues still rising in South Finland 3-5 mm/ year.
.
From what I gather the dordogne would have been some way south of permafrost and fairly temperate even when the last ice age was at its peak.
 

Antipodes 

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Yes they have wings and they have their migration habits. Most I wonder humming birds, how long migration flights it can do in America.


Impossible to compare to honeybees. Swarms cannot fly very far over seas.
Swarms hitch rides on boats.
 
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