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madasafish 

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And it's only just December.
January will be fun if the weather is poor..

Although to be fair, anti vaxxers make this look like a vicar's tea party. :devilish:
 

Swarm 

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Yes, there is massive variation in each subspecies of honey bee and specialisation can happen in remarkably small districts.
Griff Jenkins, a former chair of bibba, who kept bees not a million miles away from you Dani, in cwrtnewydd, described his bees as large brown ones.
The colonsay/ oronsay bees are said to be nigh on pure Amm as are very many from the recent Irish studies.
I'm not sure of any samples done with recent dna techniques from England or Wales that get the magic above 95% Amm dna heritage, I hope I'm wrong.
For my own bees, the last time they were sampled what I considered to be near pure actually fell slightly short of 90% Amm and what I considered to be highly hybridised (with yellow banding on the abdomen) taken as a control sample only slightly less Amm than what I considered pure!
Wasn't Jo Widdecombe on here a while ago?
I'm sure he could shed light on the cornish Amm situation, those rame peninsula bees will have been prodded and poked nearly as much as Andrew Abrahams ones on the Scottish Islands.
Anyway, in my opinion only folk with curds for brains would want to disparage native bee breeding efforts just out of personal preference.
Very interesting, we had exactly the same with a colony at a friend's apiary. I'd say more than 50% banded workers yet they scored higher than a few very dark examples, coming in at 78%.
 

Swarm 

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And it's only just December.
January will be fun if the weather is poor..

Although to be fair, anti vaxxers make this look like a vicar's tea party. :devilish:
Not a problem, just ignore the background noise.
 

RichardK 

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What are Italian locals?

What are queen changes?
Every time when bees swarm, they rear new queen, and the queens makes cross matings. Every race you know.

Do you have alternatives?
  • An Italian local is an Italian who lives locally.....
  • Queen changes.....one queen goes and another arrives
  • none of us want to 'turn in our graves' just yet thanks....we'll all still alive
  • as for the TV and sofa....I have no idea at all, I'm just confused!
Your posts often brighten a thread up.....frequently I have no idea what you're on about mind you.....but keep doing it! :) :)
 

Apiarist 

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"our dna analysis over here "
Who is "our"?
Where is "here"?
And a link to the dna analysis would help make sense of this post.
Sorry, you're quite right.
"our" and "here" is Irish/Ireland.

The paper which I'm referring to is linked below, and the sentences that I was thinking of are (to save you having to read it);

"...the first organized importation of bees recorded in the Republic of Ireland in 1923, when skeps of Dutch bees (A. m. mellifera) were brought in large numbers..."
"... the large numbers of bees similar to the Dutch type detected here reflect the significant imports by beekeepers from the Netherlands..."
"... amongst the beekeepers in the NIHBS these are the predominant type of A. m. mellifera here. Indeed, the GBBG sent bees to Colonsay and other locations in the UK indicating the potential of these types of analyses to detect relationships."

 

Curly green finger's 

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What are Italian locals?

What are queen changes?
Every time when bees swarm, they rear new queen, and the queens makes cross matings. Every race you know.

Do you have alternatives?
New queen introductions via cages.
Italians were my original bees I started with when I moved them up here to the hill they either swarmed or superseded which would of made them local bees to this area, does that answer your question?
 

mbc 

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Sorry, you're quite right.
"our" and "here" is Irish/Ireland.

The paper which I'm referring to is linked below, and the sentences that I was thinking of are (to save you having to read it);

"...the first organized importation of bees recorded in the Republic of Ireland in 1923, when skeps of Dutch bees (A. m. mellifera) were brought in large numbers..."
"... the large numbers of bees similar to the Dutch type detected here reflect the significant imports by beekeepers from the Netherlands..."
"... amongst the beekeepers in the NIHBS these are the predominant type of A. m. mellifera here. Indeed, the GBBG sent bees to Colonsay and other locations in the UK indicating the potential of these types of analyses to detect relationships."

Thanks.
"A high level of Irish alleles being present in the European reference populations may reflect the common ancestry of these two populations. The very limited gene flow from the European populations sampled into the Irish population indicates the isolation of the Irish population while the presence of unique microsatellite alleles and mitochondrial haplotypes in the Irish population probably indicates independent evolution of the Irish population since its isolation from mainland Europe."
These sentences clearly make a mockery of your understanding and take of the paper, Irish bees aren't Dutch, your narrative is a nonsense if you actually read the abstract you kindly linked.
 

Finman 

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New queen introductions via cages.
Italians were my original bees I started with when I moved them up here to the hill they either swarmed or superseded which would of made them local bees to this area, does that answer your question?
I do not mind about "local bee thinking". It has no value. To where you need such philosophy?
 

Finman 

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  • An Italian local is an Italian who lives locally.....
  • Queen changes.....one queen goes and another arrives
  • none of us want to 'turn in our graves' just yet thanks....we'll all still alive
  • as for the TV and sofa....I have no idea at all, I'm just confused!
Your posts often brighten a thread up.....frequently I have no idea what you're on about mind you.....but keep doing it! :) :)
All bees live locally/ in location. Unless they swarm and change their location.

I wonder, what is the problem out there.
I can buy queens from Canada or from Italy or from Serbia and I do not need to think, are they local. I am only interested, are they better than my bees.
 

Erichalfbee 

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Yes, there is massive variation in each subspecies of honey bee and specialisation can happen in remarkably small districts.
Griff Jenkins, a former chair of bibba, who kept bees not a million miles away from you Dani, in cwrtnewydd, described his bees as large brown ones.
The colonsay/ oronsay bees are said to be nigh on pure Amm as are very many from the recent Irish studies.
I'm not sure of any samples done with recent dna techniques from England or Wales that get the magic above 95% Amm dna heritage, I hope I'm wrong.
For my own bees, the last time they were sampled, what I considered to be near pure actually fell slightly short of 90% Amm and what I considered to be highly hybridised (with yellow banding on the abdomen) taken as a control sample only slightly less Amm than what I considered pure!
Wasn't Jo Widdecombe on here a while ago?
I'm sure he could shed light on the cornish Amm situation, those rame peninsula bees will have been prodded and poked nearly as much as Andrew Abrahams ones on the Scottish Islands.
Anyway, in my opinion only folk with curds for brains would want to disparage native bee breeding efforts just out of personal preference.
So although there can be a high level of Amm DNA it’s not necessarily the same genes involved every time? Which would account for differences in phenotype?
 

pargyle 

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New queen introductions via cages.
Italians were my original bees I started with when I moved them up here to the hill they either swarmed or superseded which would of made them local bees to this area, does that answer your question?
So they become local mongrels ?

Definition of mongrel

An individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds or strains.
A cross between types of persons or things.


But ... even if your local bees were 100% AMM then the subsequent progeny are only going to be 50% AMM and the reality is that your local bees are probably already going to be mongrels so the percentage of AMM genes is even less.

I think I'm with Finny on this one ... you will only have AMM's as long as you have pure bred queens that are AMM that you have bought in. Anything else is going to produce mongrels.
 

mbc 

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So they become local mongrels ?

Definition of mongrel

An individual resulting from the interbreeding of diverse breeds or strains.
A cross between types of persons or things.


But ... even if your local bees were 100% AMM then the subsequent progeny are only going to be 50% AMM and the reality is that your local bees are probably already going to be mongrels so the percentage of AMM genes is even less.

I think I'm with Finny on this one ... you will only have AMM's as long as you have pure bred queens that are AMM that you have bought in. Anything else is going to produce mongrels.
No, I remember a presentation by Dr Helen Thompson who did lots of work on background populations around the country and everywhere had Amm as the greatest contributor to the genes in the drones in the air, so subsequent generations, pretty much wherever you open mate an Amm virgin in the UK her progeny are more than likely over 75% Amm.
 

Curly green finger's 

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No, I remember a presentation by Dr Helen Thompson who did lots of work on background populations around the country and everywhere had Amm as the greatest contributor to the genes in the drones in the air, so subsequent generations, pretty much wherever you open mate an Amm virgin in the UK her progeny are more than likely over 75% Amm.
I've seen a map of the whole country concerning amms, and borders and Shropshire were ranging from 65% upto 80%.
I would like to get mine tested at some point.
Which hopefully would clarify that what Philip is saying is wrong, I'm trying to control my matings as such which has to have some influence.
What ever, they are still near natives.
No need to highlight the mongrel thing I know the definition, and get of my back man!
 
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Finman 

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STEVIED:

both hives were started at the same time , both in the same place and both sets of bees flying off in the same direction.
Black bees hove a lot of stores, i have had to feed the italians
[/QUOTE]

2 cases, and now you already know the answer.
.
 

rook66 

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  • An Italian local is an Italian who lives locally.....
  • Queen changes.....one queen goes and another arrives
  • none of us want to 'turn in our graves' just yet thanks....we'll all still alive
  • as for the TV and sofa....I have no idea at all, I'm just confused!
Your posts often brighten a thread up.....frequently I have no idea what you're on about mind you.....but keep doing it!

And so say all of us! Finnie should get an award for subtleness and diplomacy especially during these troubled times.
 

rook66 

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  • An Italian local is an Italian who lives locally.....
  • Queen changes.....one queen goes and another arrives
  • none of us want to 'turn in our graves' just yet thanks....we'll all still alive
  • as for the TV and sofa....I have no idea at all, I'm just confused!
Your posts often brighten a thread up.....frequently I have no idea what you're on about mind you.....but keep doing it! :) :)
And so say all of us! He should get more recognition for his subtleness and diplomacy.
 

Erichalfbee 

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No, I remember a presentation by Dr Helen Thompson who did lots of work on background populations around the country and everywhere had Amm as the greatest contributor to the genes in the drones in the air, so subsequent generations, pretty much wherever you open mate an Amm virgin in the UK her progeny are more than likely over 75% Amm.
Yes you have to take drone DNA into the mix so it would up the percentage to over 50
 
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Erichalfbee 

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And so say all of us! He should get more recognition for his subtleness and diplomacy.
How's your Finnish, these days?
 
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