Breeding from superseded queens

[Curly green finger's]

Hi and good morning,
I wondering what your thoughts are on the above title pls.
One of by breeder queen's is superseding and I've open mated queen's (daughters) from her what's the liklihood that the daughters will do the same.

 

[jeff33]

The same as your likelihood of winning the lottery.... With open mating I use the rule of thumb (discussed on here before) of losing 25-30% of the mother's traits .

 

[B+.]

Hi and good morning,
I wondering what your thoughts are on the above title pls.
One of by breeder queen's is superseding and I've open mated queen's (daughters) from her what's the liklihood that the daughters will do the same.

The 1a daughter receives 16 of her 32 chromosomes from her 2a mother and the other 16 from the drone which fertilised the egg (i.e. she is diploid). In this sense, she is more like the workers than the queen so it is unrealistic to expect her to be the same. Each new generation bears the capacity to improve or detract from the capabilities of the last (i.e. selection difference) so your stock can improve little by little each generation.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Thanks both that gives me something to think about.
My thoughts were that I wouldn't of liked selling the daughter queen's if they have a tendance to superced.
They would be mongrelised even quicker.
The breeder queen's daughter's are all here with me, and I guess we will see what happens.
Cheers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My thoughts were that I wouldn't of liked selling the daughter queen's if they have a tendance to superced.

Why? I fail to see your logic.
They supersede when they sense the queen is flagging, or not likely to fire up come spring.
Supersedure is more attractive than colonies who just hang on until it's too late then dwindle and die, or are constant swarmers.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Why? I fail to see your logic.

They supersede when they sense the queen is flagging, or not likely to fire up come spring.

Supersedure is more attractive than colonies who just hang on until it's too late then dwindle and die, or are constant swarmers.

Wouldn't it be better to sell queen's that don't.. Well mated queen's that don't supersede and survive more than one season.
if a colony are superseding every season where are the gentle genetics going? Out the window in just one season.


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[jenkinsbrynmair]

if a colony are superseding every season

How do you know they are? and maybe the problem isn't them changing their queen but the fact their queen is not good for more than one season if you assume this is happening.
Nowhere in the discussing of supersedure does the definition in beekeeping terms say the trait includes changing the queen each and every year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Looking back over this thread and others, it seems that you've conflated your bees replacing a duff 'breeder' queen with them planning to replace their queen each season regardless.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Looking back over this thread and others, it seems that you've conflated your bees replacing a duff 'breeder' queen with them planning to replace their queen each season regardless.

I am replacing queen's very regularly emyr yes I've not got any queen's older than 2 years.

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[madasafish]

I have colonies which supercede their queens every two years or so..

Far preferable - and less hassle - than colonies which swam...

And often both queens exist in harmony together for a while so a near seamless transition with little loss of honey production...

 

[enrico]

When I first started many years ago my mentor said that queen's that supercede are like gold dust. We all want them and many of us believe we have them as we fail to witness a swarm but those of us that actually possess one are few and far between.
I hear more about queen's superseding now than I ever did then. Everybody seems to have queen's that supercede, or are the majority ( and not all before you start shouting at me!!) failing to witness the swarm!
E

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes and a number of people call swarm cells supersedure cells and describe both swarm and supersedure cells on the same frame.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am replacing queen's very regularly I've not got any queen's older than 2 years.

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why?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes and a number of people call swarm cells supersedure cells and describe both swarm and supersedure cells on the same frame.

It's all about location apparently.......................and then we wonder why some despair at the state of beekeeping in the UK

 

[Curly green finger's]

why?

To me jbm bee farming is much the same as breeding sheep or pigs, cattle or any livestock.
Having young stock is better to breed from.
Plus introducing new young queen's every two years is going to keep the diversity of genetics.
I hope this answers your question.

Ps I don't know if I told you but in the 90s we had 500 sows and had some of the best breeding stock in the country.

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[Erichalfbee]

I keep a good queen till she wears out. I’ve no interest in queen rearing but I do take splits from a decent queen and keep her line going if it’s a good one.

 

[GuyNir]

I keep a good queen till she wears out. I’ve no interest in queen rearing but I do take splits from a decent queen and keep her line going if it’s a good one.

Same here.

 

[B+.]

Hi and good morning,
I wondering what your thoughts are on the above title pls.
One of by breeder queen's is superseding and I've open mated queen's (daughters) from her what's the liklihood that the daughters will do the same.

I have to confess that I'm a bit confused by what you're asking. Surely, if a queen has been superseded, she's dead? If you mean the daughter of the superseded queen, I wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with the queen per se. It's more about what you intend to do with her. You said "breeding" but I think you mean "rearing" since breeding has a specific meaning and requires that you control both sides of the ancestry. I don't think you mean this - you've just used the wrong terminology but this has made it more difficult to understand exactly what you're asking.
I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with the daughter - she will be genetically the same as her sisters - the workers. So, if the mother was control-mated, the queen will be good to use - as a drone mother if open mated or a queen mother if she is also control mated. I would add the provisor that queen mothers should also be performance tested if they're part of a breeding programme - but if you just meant random mating, then she'll probably be no better, or worse, than anything around you -it's pot luck!

 

[Curly green finger's]

I have to confess that I'm a bit confused by what you're asking. Surely, if a queen has been superseded, she's dead? If you mean the daughter of the superseded queen, I wouldn't have thought there was anything wrong with the queen per se. It's more about what you intend to do with her. You said "breeding" but I think you mean "rearing" since breeding has a specific meaning and requires that you control both sides of the ancestry. I don't think you mean this - you've just used the wrong terminology but this has made it more difficult to understand exactly what you're asking.
I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with the daughter - she will be genetically the same as her sisters - the workers. So, if the mother was control-mated, the queen will be good to use - as a drone mother if open mated or a queen mother if she is also control mated. I would add the provisor that queen mothers should also be performance tested if they're part of a breeding programme - but if you just meant random mating, then she'll probably be no better, or worse, than anything around you -it's pot luck!

Morning Paul, I've reared daughter queen's and the mother queen is being replaced, I had planned next season to use the queen's to rear more in much the same process maybe even graft from them.

The daughters were raised and put into an incubator then taken to a Mating site up on the Clun Hills ( friend beek).

His Mating site produces all black queen's and he has been rearing queen's for a long time up there.
Having both drone and Queen rearing ancestry as you call it.

Ive used the same methods up on the Clee and only 70% of my queen's have been black, early days only being in my second year.
Im hoping in subsequent years to achieve a higher percentage.