Bees dead in the hive, not sure how

[JamezF]

As I'm sitting having my lunch...

I think "winter bees" is a poor name that leads to much confusion. I'd suggest that using the terms "long-lived bees" or diutinus bees would be more helpful when the concept is introduced to new beekeepers. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if bees with the same characteristics occur at other times of year because it's not the fact that "winter is coming" that stimulates their behaviour, but the lack of brood for them to feed once they emerge. I also dislike the wording that the colony "produces" such bees because to me it implies some sort of deliberate switchover rather than being part of the natural ebb and flow of brood numbers.

Two instances when I believe bees with these traits might exist at other times of year are when an emergency queen is raised and during swarming. It's clearly not the same kind of time period as the entire winter, but quite possibly as long as the figure often quoted for the entire lifetime of "summer bees".

Conjecture only. I haven't read any research to suggest the accuracy (or otherwise).

James

 

[Moobee]

There was a lecture at one of the beekeeping conferences relatively recently (it's on YouTube, but I can't recall enough for it to come up in a search right now) where graphs of brood numbers throughout the Autumn and early Winter were shown. The minimal levels were late October and early November as far as I recall, though there was quite a bit of variation, even between hives in the same apiary. I believe some were never broodless.

It was a small sample so clearly can't be considered gospel, but it makes me think that the suggestion of colonies being broodless in mid-winter is quite possibly another beekeeping myth. In fact now I've written this much, I believe the speaker was saying that brood-rearing at low levels through the winter may actually assist the colony with thermoregulation.

James

I remember that. Also as I recall, weather plays a big part as a very mild winter could mean the queen never actually stops laying. So you have to gauge best time to treat with minimal brood.

 

[Erichalfbee]

With minimal brood you still have to treat three times. You need no brood to get away with treating just once.
If you get little drop with one treatment in winter all it suggests is that the varroa are all safe under cappings.

 

[rdartington]

I remember that. Also as I recall, weather plays a big part as a very mild winter could mean the queen never actually stops laying. So you have to gauge best time to treat with minimal brood.

This is assuming that all honeybees react instinctively in the same way to temperature. But in their long evolution, different sub-species evolved in different climatic zones - melifera in the northern european forests which can have long winters, lingustica in Italy with no or short winter, carnica …. we should try to hear from beekeepers keeping black bees (mellifera ) on whether their bees instinctively react to a warm autumn by continuing to raise brood - which personally I doubt - whereas yellow bees may well do.

 

[Ian123]

People are putting too much emphasis on temperature, whilst resources and availability are linked to temperature they are not exclusive. Bees are opportunistic and will respond to the environment and resources available.
They do not sit in the hive thinking this is to not right let’s stay in today

 

[Erichalfbee]

They do not sit in the hive thinking this is to not right let’s stay in today

I keep black and yellow bees. I can say that all the colonies were out and about most of this winter. The black ones even more so.

 

[ericbeaumont]

mild winter could mean the queen never actually stops laying

Nor varroa, which multiply at about twice the rate.

 

[Ian123]

different sub-species evolved in different climatic zones - melifera in the northern european forests which can have long winters, lingustica in Italy with no or short winter, carnica …. we should try to hear from beekeepers keeping black bees (mellifera

Different sub species of bees do indeed have different characteristics. Good Italian bees are very adaptable and I think fair to say for years formed the backbone of a lot of commercial set ups from the Northern hemisphere to the southern. Including our very own Finsky! Often experiencing far longer and colder temperatures than our mild maritime climate will chuck at them. Any claim that they are all soft is rubbish.

 

[ericbeaumont]

beekeepers keeping black bees on whether their bees instinctively react to a warm autumn by continuing to raise brood ... whereas yellow bees may well do

That definition may stand in remote areas, Robin, but here in the mad metro & ruralish suburbs the mixture of races makes that proposal redundant, and in the parts of Herts. where I manage bees, Buckfast (used by a large-scale beefarmer) have spread their genes far and wide.

It remains the case that losses I have borne and observed are due mainly to inefficient or absent varroa treatment in late summer. Subsidiary reasons: small colonies in big boxes (poor thermal regulation, isolation starvation), minor disease, queen failure.

To suggest otherwise is a vain journey, but here's a suggestion: rather than stick with routine, treat next August (and by all means, a single in December) and report your losses here next spring.

That one change will not explain other Herts. losses, where autumn treatment will have been applied, but as I reported earlier, CPBV, both Nosemas, and (forgot this) BQCV are evident in that county.

I understand your inclination to use authoritative sources of guidance such as the NBU, but the plain fact is that they're really not all up to speed, and broad, flexible opinion is likely to provide an answer that gives better results.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Saw ivy nectar congesting brood combs for the first time last year. Photo 29th September. There's been plenty of ivy around in the past but never seen this before. I can imagine that this stalled production of winter bees. So all I can do is stress about how many I may have lost.

Don't know how many of my 9 hives have made it through yet but all still active.

View attachment 35704

Well, checked all my 9 hives now (all on brood and a half) and all of them are doing OK. Variable strength but BIAS. Proves nothing.

There are some obvious frames of ivy honey remaining. I saw one bee farmer on the Twitter stressing that this might promote early swarming so lets all worry about that now. Might swap some out for foundation. I don't have any spare drawn brood frames.

. . . . Ben

 

[user 819]

I have polled my result in philips poll on winter losses, I'm polling 37.5% losses of 5 out 8 and one other may not make it.
One total loss and two with no brood or Queen found, both have approx 1k of bees remaining.
The one other has bees and 3 sealed QC's, there is evidence of 6 frames of sealed brood and a heck of a lot if ivy stores remaining. A poke around the grass under the hive near the front indicates a recent dead swarm maybe 5 or so days old , bees not to badly decomposed and though the Q was not found she was clipped.


All colonies on D/B national, all vaped with same 4 x 5 day treatment late Aug/early Sept and again early Nov with the mild weather heavy ivy flow and a xmas vape.

The total loss hive suffered starvation as Q & patch of bees clustered , surrounded by ample ivy stores. To my eyes a case of lack of bees to keep warm and believe the heavy ivy flow blocked brood laying preventing enough winter bees being raised.

Four other colonies looking strong Brood/EUS 6f, 2 x 10f and 11f.

Though my losses this winter are not good and among the worse I have experienced, the plan was to unite to four colonies to reduce my number this year. So though not united my losses has reduced my colony numbers.

 

[rdartington]

I keep black and yellow bees. I can say that all the colonies were out and about most of this winter. The black ones even more so.

The question was whether black and yellow bees both raised brood into winter - certainly they will both fly - and wear themselves out , maybe unfortunately for them.
I take the point that excess vr will kill colonies. But why are there so many accounts of heavy losses from bkprs in north Herts and now. also from Bedfordshire . Did so many experienced bkprs all suddenly give up on vr treatment?

 

[rdartington]

I remember that. Also as I recall, weather plays a big part as a very mild winter could mean the queen never actually stops laying. So you have to gauge best time to treat with minimal brood.

Do you agree that we can detect when there is no longer any brood in winter by waiting until there are no dark cappings in lines on the vr board? Usually At Xmas in my area.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you agree that we can detect when there is no longer any brood in winter by waiting until there are no dark cappings in lines

not really - that just means that brood are emerging - if none are emerging, no cappings may mean that brooding has started again

 

[Erichalfbee]

But why are there so many accounts of heavy losses from bkprs in north Herts and now. also from Bedfordshire

Well you’ve mentioned you have considered a novel virus/ Ivy honey.
How are you investigating the cause? Because everything so far in this thread has been speculation.
If what you say is true that Herts/Beds seems to be an English Bermuda Triangle there needs to be some pretty serious investigation

 

[Ian123]

Do you agree that we can detect when there is no longer any brood in winter by waiting until there are no dark cappings in lines on the vr board? Usually At Xmas in my area.

You don’t need to detect or guess if they are still raising brood why don’t you just look.
As a rule xmas and early Jan as you stated I would describe as the optimal time in my area
Larger hives will come back into to lay before nucs I find most nucs do not start laying again until February but there are often signs of stop-start!

 

[rdartington]

Well you’ve mentioned you have considered a novel virus/ Ivy honey.
How are you investigating the cause? Because everything so far in this thread has been speculation.
If what you say is true that Herts/Beds seems to be an English Bermuda Triangle there needs to be some pretty serious investigation

Now I agree with you. If my losses re-occur, I doubt it is worth keeping bees here, if losses have been triggered by long warm period while ivy is flowering, due in part to climate change . So that is why I am so keen to uncover what happened.
Just assuming that many local beekeepers suddenly gave up on vr treatment does not seem likely to me.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

we've yet to see proof of this 'many' either half a dozen or so is neither here nor there

 

[rdartington]

You don’t need to detect or guess if they are still raising brood why don’t you just look.
As a rule xmas and early Jan as you stated I would describe as the optimal time in my area
Larger hives will come back into to lay before nucs I find most nucs do not start laying again until February but there are often signs of stop-start!

I don’t look inside a hive at Xmas time as the weather is cold, well below the temp inside the cluster.
What I might try is inserting a thermometer between the central frames, that I could read thru the glass cover board. I have read that the temp is about 35deg where brood is raised but drops to around 27deg when there is no brood.
But I expect a flood of comment that that is rubbish.

 

[Ian123]

Most the experienced beeks I am aware of are reporting low/ normal losses. Good ivy flows are not uncommon in my area. Whilst it was mild we had that cold snap late November early December that put an end to it, that period is normal/consistent with other years.
If you are finding beeks that treated suffering losses I’d look at treatments and what was used. There were large/random losses
Mid 2000s with Apistan resistance. Some very good beeks expressed concern regarding Apivar resistance some time ago!