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ericbeaumont 

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What does the national organisation do for beekeepers and it's members ?
Well, they did help to criminalise many of their members by getting into bed with the VMD and outlawing the use of effective, cheap, plain oxalic acid.
 
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Ian123 

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I don't see why not. Just because this forum was created by a dissatisfied bunch of rebels a few years ago, does not mean they can censor our topics of discussion.
Who’s been censored! I remember seeing rather a lot of deleting done on the bbka site, far more than has ever been done here. Your talking about them now and have not seen any threats to delete/ban.
 

Karol 

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It’s an urban myth at best sugars probably 1 of the most tested foods on the planet not only is it consumed in its raw/basic form it’s added to a huge percentage of foods we consume. Ask your friend to point to 1 instance of sugar feeding leading to neo nics poisoning. Also rather like the age old question of wax foundation bringing in brood disease, it’s a non event.
Absolutely concur. The sugar refining process will remove neonics from sugar so the expectation is that there shouldn't be any carry over of neonics from sugar beet into sugar:


That is not however an argument to use neonics as much like mustard, it's the amount left on the environmental 'plate' that's of primary ecological concern and the collateral harm that's done.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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I don't see why not. Just because this forum was created by a dissatisfied bunch of rebels a few years ago, does not mean they can censor our topics of discussion.
Do you see any censorship of discussion? there's a difference between discussing their actions/inaction/policies and actively plugging their website and supplying links
you just have to remember where that pretty silly comment came from
 

Ian123 

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Well, they did help to criminalise many of their members by getting into bed with the VMD and outlawing the use of effective, cheap, plain oxalic acid.
Whilst I loved the comment oxalic was already illegal to use before vmd approval for apiboxal. 1 big gripe with the bbka is there so ineffective as an organisation they were about 10 years late with oxalic use. The rest of Europe just cracked on with its use/research it was an Italian beek that pointed out its use to me. They were terrified to even think about it. Same with apivar, used throughout the EU but took them years for any to push for its approval here. There supposed to be a representative body and push the interest/benefit of its members, always well behind the curve IMO
 
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Bear 

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It’s an urban myth at best sugars probably 1 of the most tested foods on the planet not only is it consumed in its raw/basic form it’s added to a huge percentage of foods we consume. Ask your friend to point to 1 instance of sugar feeding leading to neo nics poisoning. Also rather like the age old question of wax foundation bringing in brood disease, it’s a non event.
Big difference between a human and a honey bee.
 

Somerford 

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Some associations are open about the ADM and do ask their members their opinion on the matters being voted on, sadly those associations are a small minority. Most associations the members have no idea who the representative is and the votes are the opinion of the person with the bum on the seat at the meeting.
If something is voted for at an ADM and the committee doesn't like it, it can be ignored.
The option for going for a so called membership vote is normally employed when the larger associations want to control a vote as the number of votes goes on membership then.
The issue was it wasn’t on the papers prior - it was an emergency point and vote added on the day which they always seem to do...therefore there was no way any ADM attendee would be able to canvas opinions back at base before the vote. They should have abstained .

I despair that this is the way they ‘think’ they are representing beekeepers.
 

Ian123 

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Glad to help.
As you like being of assistance could you find a verifiable report for me of neo nic poisoning from sugar fed to bees. Most countries with a large beekeeping industry have a version of the NBU. So they must be out there some place....Ian
 

ericbeaumont 

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Whilst I loved the comment oxalic was already illegal to use before vmd approval for apiboxal.
Sort of.

OA may not have been an authorised product but nobody would have been prosecuted for using it (esp. the inspectors!) and they and ordinary mortal beekeepers ran the risk of prosecution only after AB came on the market.

There's a difference between unlawful and illegal, and I believe that the use of OA prior to AB was unlawful (because OA had never been authorised) but that OA was made illegal after AB was introduced with the new law. If Thorn is out there he may drop in and clarify.
 
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ericbeaumont 

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There supposed to be a representative body and push the interest/benefit of its members, always well behind the curve IMO
the bbka is ... so ineffective as an organisation
This is the real problem.

Having said that, who would take the place of those who have the time and commitment to volunteer, but not the political skill to make wise decisions that benefit ordinary beekeepers?

Backwater shuffling of small print and muddling along brings no tangible benefit, and nor does the contented treading of water by repeating methods and practices discarded in 1957.

I suppose the BBKA do the best they can (and for no pay) but as a result we live with a blinkered service of limited use to contemporary beekeepers. Perhaps it has always been so?
 

gmonag 

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I suppose the BBKA do the best they can (and for no pay) but as a result we live with a blinkered service of limited use to contemporary beekeepers. Perhaps it has always been so?
What service would you like to see and who could best deliver it?
 

Karol 

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Sort of.

OA may not have been an authorised product but nobody would have been prosecuted for using it (esp. the inspectors!) and they and ordinary mortal beekeepers ran the risk of prosecution only after AB came on the market.

There's a difference between unlawful and illegal, and I believe that the use of OA prior to AB was unlawful (because OA had never been authorised) but that OA was made illegal after AB was introduced with the new law. If Thorn is out there he may drop in and clarify.
Not sure it's as simple as that. OA could and can still be used lawfully if prescribed by a vet under the cascade system and supplied by a responsible supplier such as a pharmacist or authorised unlicensed veterinary medicines manufacturer.

There are a number of impediments taking this route but it is a way by which OA could be lawfully used.
 
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MJNT 

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Not sure it's as simple as that. OA could and can still be used lawfully if prescribed by a vet under the cascade system and supplied by a responsible supplier such as a pharmacist or authorised unlicensed veterinary medicines manufacturer.

There are a number of impediments taking this route but it is a way by which OA could be lawfully used.
You’d struggle to get that as one condition of using the cascade to prescribe a particular medication is that there is no licensed alternative but in this case there is The cascade refers to a hierarchy of reasons and solutions that need to be satisfied in order to justify its use and I don’t think the mucky residue left in a sublimate cuts the mustard!
 

Brian Bush 

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But we do not discuss matters pertaining to the BBKA on this forum... unless it impinges on individuals beekeeping activities.... Shirley????
I assume that the reason for this is we do not want to be sued for a untruth printed on the forum.
I switched to this forum when another forum would not allow free speech and discussion about big pharma. We must be very careful that what we say is easily provable. We cannot hide behind anonymity. Please be careful.
 

ericbeaumont 

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I don’t think the mucky residue left in a sublimate cuts the mustard
Had another poke around the .gov cascade pages and I agree that sublimation residue and inefficiency of use would be the main points of argument.

However, if OA can be prescribed under cascade as an extemporaneous preparation - extemporaneous preparations (also known as “veterinary specials”) are products that do not hold a Marketing Authorisation (MA) - and the risks are demonstrated to be negligible, then an optimistic case could be made.

Are the risks negligible? Yes:

Oxalic acid is a key substance for varroosis winter treatment, but in all EU countries government approval for its use was held up by the requirement that the maximum residue limit (MRL) first be officially determined by the European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products (EMEA). Establishing the MRL as a common European project was financed by scientific institutes and beekeeper associations in most EU countries. Our activities and the procedure of getting the MRL established by the EMEA, which was successfully achieved in December 2004, is described.

You note that most EU countries contributed to the research to prove that MRL of OA was insignificant and that cheap, plain OA was safe to use. Where was the BBKA when the request went out for support? Asleep to the benefits such approval would confer on its members?

If the EU were satisfied that the MRL was not an issue, what of current VMD requirements? They seem to relate more to sophisticated chemical treatments, and perhaps OA might pass these easily:

When using a product under the cascade, you should balance the expected benefits to the animal with the risks of using a medicine under the cascade.

Risks could include those to: the animal, the owner, the person administering the medicine, consumers of produce from treated animals which may contain residues of the veterinary medicine, the environment, wider public health, for example increased selection for antimicrobial resistance.

The pharmacologically active substances contained in the medicine must have a Maximum Residue Limit (MRL).


As this last was established in 2004 and AB was authorised for use in 2015 it looks as if other motivations were at work to override OA in favour of AB.

Perhaps the BBKA will provide a timeline of their involvement in this story, the final chapter of which deprived their members of an effective, cheap and safe tool and obliged them to use one that is less efficient, more expensive and as safe as the one it replaced.
 

Apple 

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What service would you like to see and who could best deliver it?
Compulsory registration for anyone either keeping or intending to keep bees...... APHA would need a lot more staff!
Probably will never happen... unless we get SHB?????
 
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