Bailey Comb Change

[curry756]

Hello,

Having acquired my "second hand" bees just before winter, I am looking to completely swap out all the frames as I have no idea when they were last changed. They have previously been attacked by woodpeckers, so a good few of the frames are are broken and some are frames are SN in a DN brood body?!? The bees have built this all up, so it looks like a DN frame, but I just think its easier to swap them all out as I guess its good for disease control and it will give me a good starting point for the year - clean brood body, frames and floor.

So I guess my questions are:

Is this the correct approach?
When is the correct time of the year for this?

I have a new DN body and 12 frames ready to go

Thanks in advance

 

[REDWOOD]

Probably the best time to do this is when the colony has expanded to the point when you will need to put a super on but put your new BB on instead

 

[Heather]

I personally do a shake out. Much quicker, and may lose much varroa.

I do fairly soon, when weather settled but queen not too into fast laying.
Find the queen and gently cage her and tuck in a pocket.
Put new brood box with frames right on the spot where the previous hive was. Frame by frame shake the bees into the new box, till all bees transferred. Wait 10 mins then replace queen in the centre of frames. Cover with new board and give them a big 1:1 syrup feed (even nearer 2:1)

 

[fiftyjon]

Put a queen excluder under the new brood box with Heather's suggestion.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Put a queen excluder under the new brood box with Heather's suggestion.

and leave it under until they have capped brood on the new frames

 

[Heather]

Well spotted. Don't want them legging off!

 

[fiftyjon]

Thanks MM, forgot to add it should be removed after a few days.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Well spotted. Don't want them legging off!

Been there, done that and got the empty hive :-(

 

[curry756]

I personally do a shake out. Much quicker, and may lose much varroa.

I do fairly soon, when weather settled but queen not too into fast laying.
Find the queen and gently cage her and tuck in a pocket.
Put new brood box with frames right on the spot where the previous hive was. Frame by frame shake the bees into the new box, till all bees transferred. Wait 10 mins then replace queen in the centre of frames. Cover with new board and give them a big 1:1 syrup feed (even nearer 2:1)

Thanks Sounds interesting.

A couple of questions:
1) is it a bit of a risk to move the queen now. I only have this colony and have no way of replacing her if anything bad happens?
2) what happens to the current BB, brood and capped stores?
3) I'm currently feeding Neopoll, can I keep with this instead of the syrup?
4) where will the queen lay in the new BB - they will all be new frames with new undrawn foundation? I read online that it will take the bees a while to draw up the comb and that they struggle to produce wax in colder weather?

Thanks again.

 

[itma]

...

I have a new DN body and 12 frames ready to go

Although 12 hoffman-spaced frames will fit into a National box, (when everything is new and completely clean) - the normal thing is to use 11 frames plus a dummy board.
A dummy board isn't a dummy frame so much as a dummy wall.
However, although much thinner than a frame, it has the same area as a frame - ie it has the same beespace at sides and bottom.

Keeping the frames snugged tight together with the dummy on the freespace end has the effect of keeping the comb (even on the last frame) of even thickness.

During inspections, the dummy is the first out, and the last back in.
Its a very helpful thing indeed.


Now the bad news! You really need a spare hive, and frames, for swarm control purposes (especially if you are running on a single-brood National!)
Since the swarm hive would only get occasional use (hopefully) the original hive might be patched up to suffice.

 

[itma]

I personally do a shake out. Much quicker, and may lose much varroa.

A "shook swarm" is a well-respected manipulation.

However, I would NOT advise the OP to try one with his dodgy broken frames and brace comb.

Bailey might not be as quick, but, if you can get Q into the top box, Bailey should be less stressful.

 

[curry756]

Although 12 hoffman-spaced frames will fit into a National box, (when everything is new and completely clean) - the normal thing is to use 11 frames plus a dummy board.
A dummy board isn't a dummy frame so much as a dummy wall.
However, although much thinner than a frame, it has the same area as a frame - ie it has the same beespace at sides and bottom.

Keeping the frames snugged tight together with the dummy on the freespace end has the effect of keeping the comb (even on the last frame) of even thickness.

During inspections, the dummy is the first out, and the last back in.
Its a very helpful thing indeed.


Now the bad news! You really need a spare hive, and frames, for swarm control purposes (especially if you are running on a single-brood National!)
Since the swarm hive would only get occasional use (hopefully) the original hive might be patched up to suffice.

Hey,

Good spot with the 12 frames. And you are correct, I need a dummy board. I got carried away making the frames, so I need to pop back to park beekeeping to get a couple of dummy boards.

As for spare kit, I have 4 empty hives at the moment. I plan to run 2 nationals inside WBC's in the garden and I will keep the 3 spare nationals for swarm control etc.

It's my first full year so I think I nearly all set

Thanks

Paul

 

[Heather]

Hey,

As for spare kit, I have 4 empty hives at the moment. I plan to run 2 nationals inside WBC's in the garden and I will keep the 3 spare nationals for swarm control etc.

Paul

You may struggle with Nationals inside WBC as think too tight a fit. Have you trial run that thought?

 

[itma]

A dummy is one of the easier things to make.

I use a length of 10mm square strip wood (because B&Q don't sell 9mm square) as a topbar and a bit of 9mm marine ply (14x8 for a standard national, if I remember correctly) for the board itself. Glue and a few nails holds them together.

 

[curry756]

You may struggle with Nationals inside WBC as think too tight a fit. Have you trial run that thought?

Yup they all fit perfectly. Only with 14x12 bb though. Looks a lot nicer in garden than a national too. Only modification was a strip of 12x12mm on the inside of the entrance to stop bees getting into the outer WBC part of the hive.

 

[iand]

Thanks Sounds interesting.

A couple of questions:
1) is it a bit of a risk to move the queen now. I only have this colony and have no way of replacing her if anything bad happens?
2) what happens to the current BB, brood and capped stores?
3) I'm currently feeding Neopoll, can I keep with this instead of the syrup?
4) where will the queen lay in the new BB - they will all be new frames with new undrawn foundation? I read online that it will take the bees a while to draw up the comb and that they struggle to produce wax in colder weather?

Thanks again.

1] if you are a bit risk averse & I would be in your situation, why not try a double brood box (see another thread) , then when you are happy that the Queen is happily working the top box, you can then put a Q excluder between the boxes (making sure the Q is upstairs).
2] Then you have the option to let the brood below to emerge as normal or if you think varroa maybe a problem, then as mention before, its removal will help to control it.
Food frames can moved up temporarily until they are better established, they can also be used to entice the bees up. Normal practice with older frames is to move them to the outside of the box ready for removal at a later date. In this case sooner rather than later, but when you are happy to do so.
3] Neopoll has a % of pollen in the mix but is I think largely fondant. OK earlier on but with days warming up & bees foraging for there own pollen there will be less need for it.
To get them to draw new comb quickly they will need a regular supply of syrup.
4] If you put the new BB on top, you will see they will start by building an arc of cells from the bottom bar upwards. My bees have moved up, and drawn not fully but cells deep enough for the Q to lay eggs 60% of a frame in a week. But this needs syrup, warmer temps & plenty of young bees. So before starting on this venture I would suggest 8-9 frames of bees. I do this with 6 frame nucs but in the summer & it takes longer.

 

[curry756]

1] if you are a bit risk averse & I would be in your situation, why not try a double brood box (see another thread) , then when you are happy that the Queen is happily working the top box, you can then put a Q excluder between the boxes (making sure the Q is upstairs).
2] Then you have the option to let the brood below to emerge as normal or if you think varroa maybe a problem, then as mention before, its removal will help to control it.
Food frames can moved up temporarily until they are better established, they can also be used to entice the bees up. Normal practice with older frames is to move them to the outside of the box ready for removal at a later date. In this case sooner rather than later, but when you are happy to do so.
3] Neopoll has a % of pollen in the mix but is I think largely fondant. OK earlier on but with days warming up & bees foraging for there own pollen there will be less need for it.
To get them to draw new comb quickly they will need a regular supply of syrup.
4] If you put the new BB on top, you will see they will start by building an arc of cells from the bottom bar upwards. My bees have moved up, and drawn not fully but cells deep enough for the Q to lay eggs 60% of a frame in a week. But this needs syrup, warmer temps & plenty of young bees. So before starting on this venture I would suggest 8-9 frames of bees. I do this with 6 frame nucs but in the summer & it takes longer.

Great. Thanks everyone.

Assuming its a bit early now then. Will check them in another few weeks then.

Thanks again all

 

[REDWOOD]

A "shook swarm" is a well-respected manipulation.

However, I would NOT advise the OP to try one with his dodgy broken frames and brace comb.

Bailey might not be as quick, but, if you can get Q into the top box, Bailey should be less stressful.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Bailey might not be as quick, but, if you can get Q into the top box, Bailey should be less stressful.

On the beekeeper too!
I shook a colony once and by the time I got the old frames home there were lots of newly emerged baby bees wandering about
I took them back to their new hive.
This is not to say you shouldn't do a shook swarm, rather to illustrate what a wuss I am.

 

[Fraise]

some are frames are SN in a DN brood body?!?

This is done for drone culling as part of varroa control.
See previous threads including:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26206&highlight=drone+culling