Autumn preparation timings

[Blue Spinnaker]

This is my first Autumn coming up, I'm trying to get my head around making sure I get everything done.

My bees are in 14x12 from a nuc in June. Going great guns in the last fortnight particularly, the BB is heaving with eggs/larvae/stores and they have filled 7 frames of a super in 10 days, I think there is a load of HB nearby. I am planning on putting another one on today esp as I'm away for a week.

I know I have to get the supers off, treat for varroa and feed before the winter sets in, I'm not planning on leaving a super on over winter having read posts on here, and it being the bigger BB.

When should Autumn feeding be done by? I'm trying to work out how to time it all, especially when the flow seems to still be manic - not that I'm complaining!

Thanks for the help.

 

[drstitson]

The key is the word Autumn.

In my book august is summer

 

[madasafish]

BS I'm in Staffs as well.. Last year I started Autumn in early September and continued through early October...

 

[Firefly]

I'm not planning on leaving a super on over winter having read posts on here, and it being the bigger BB

Please could you post the link for the thread/posts that you have read about this. I'd like to benefit from the collective wisdom about this

Thanks

 

[Blue Spinnaker]

Thanks madasafish, I'm just trying to do my research and make sure I have all the information and equipment I need.

 

[drstitson]

firefly - i think the summary of previous threads is that many will leave a full super of stores on (either above or below) a colony on standard national brood.

since 14x12 equates roughly to brood and a half anyway extra is deemed unnecessary. do you agree Rab?

 

[oliver90owner]

I'd like to benefit from the collective wisdom about this

No rocket science on this one A jumbo is equivalent to a brood and a super, but just the single box.

 

[Firefly]

many will leave a full super of stores on (either above or below) a colony on standard national brood

Many, but not all? So is there a thread debating whether/when that is good or bad?

 

[Blue Spinnaker]

I've been wading through posts here for information from 14x12 owners and it's dotted all over, think you will just have to search!

Obviously oliver90owner is a good place to start

 

[drstitson]

firefly - think about all those on 14x12 and all those on brood and a half. plus those on commercial, langstroth and dadant.

not many single nationals?

would be interesting to see how many losses there are over winter broken down by hive type.

 

[thedeaddiplomat]

Many, but not all? So is there a thread debating whether/when that is good or bad?

It's like everything else to do with beekeeping - it all depends.

I have three hives on national brood and a half that will be overwintered with the smaller brood box left on (but re-positioned underneath the larger one). I did this last year, did not feed (they had plenty of HB and ivy honey that I had left for them), and all came through fighting fit.

My fourth colony is a fairly recent swarm in a national brood. They do not look like filling the whole brood by the autumn. I will wait to see if I am likely to need to feed them up for the winter (though I doubt it, given their current level of activity and the scale of the flow). But I suspect I will leave them in a single brood over the winter - I would guess a cluster over four frames and six or seven of stores.

 

[Cazza]

After overwintering single brood nationals for many years with no problems, I decided last year to overwinter some on brood and a half. I did this in response to reading forum posts encouraging the practice.

The bees did not touch the stores in the supers. The whole process was for me a waste of time and unnecessary. I am unlikely to repeat the process this year.
Cazza

 

[drstitson]

as stated above it depends.

some bees are frugal with stores and probably can get by on a well filled nat brood (40lbs max).
others however will be found to be short on stores at a mid winter heft and need a slab of fondant.
these are the ones that need a brood and half of stores or full 14x12.

some would just advocate slapping on an eke with half a block of fondant on bonfire night and leaving them to it.

so depends on what bees you have and what the winter is like.

 

[Firefly]

Thanks everyone. I know all the jokes about 3 economists/lawyers/bee-keepers with 6 opinions, but it really is very useful to hear the varied experience and views that get posted on here

One of my hives has already stuffed the brood box with stores, including large quantities of pollen! The other seems at the moment to have a much less far-sighted approach. I could yet end up hedging my bets

 

[Firefly]

P.S. Could someone post what the winter is going to be like

(Last year we got down to -15C on 2 successive nights)

 

[Winker]

P.S. Could someone post what the winter is going to be like

(Last year we got down to -15C on 2 successive nights)

cold and wet

 

[oliver90owner]

Firefly.

Winter stores are not just for the winter. Look a little further ahead - like to spring expansion.

Your WBC has some 45 000 worker cells.

Some will be honeystores, some will be pollen stores, some will be vacant (between brood cycles and between the brood and honey arch), some (hopefully a little) is likely drone brood (for previous season comb). A brood cycle is three weeks (or as much as 24-5 days if you were to include cells being vacant between emergence and the cells being re-laid.

Now model the lay-rate at the spring expansion and see if the WBC brood box is going to be adequate (without restricting the queen's laying). If you have a half decent queen you will find it is not, or your bees will miss the OSR flow, or they will swarm early. No rocket science in that either, although the maths might be a little tricky for some.

The extra one or two frames in a National deep will go some way towards parity and a 14 x 12 is generally more than enough. OK (I still removed some stores frames, this last spring, to leave enough laying space). Even so, I allow her extra laying space early on if she needs it - after all it is the bees that collect the nectar and only the surplus (beyond the colony daily needs) which can be converted to honey.

Simple isn't it? Do the math yourself and you will then remember it forever. Listen to the 'yays and nays' and you will not know whether you are standing on you apex or your base, will not understand 'ifs and whys' at the end of the discussion. Why? Because there are so many out there that either have a historical view and it won't change, have always done it that way, don't have an early OSR crop nearby, have a particular strain of bee, or all other manner of reasons/excuses.

My bees were late two seasons ago (for the OSR) and there were so many local beeks saying the OSR flow was rubbish, when I knew my colonies were still expanding at the main flow ie too late for a good surplus crop, with lots of young bees but insufficient bees of foraging age.

Think of why some beeks run double broods on some colonies - would they if a single brood was enough?

RAB

 

[drstitson]

"Could someone post what the winter is going to be like"

latest met office long range forecast (not publicly circulated):

33% chance colder than average
33% chance average
33% chance warmer than average
1% chance BBQ winter

 

[Firefly]

So, RAB, I guess the point-behind-your-point is that standard National/WBC brood boxes were designed when strains of bee were less prolific and/or before early expansion of the colony was necessary to catch early flow from OSR?

Experienced bee-keepers have "made them work" but your conclusion is that they are not ideally suited to today's bees, crops and conditions. Is that it?

Many thanks for composing such a full explanation

(Averages are slippery things drstitson: it's a fair bet that an above-average proportion of bee-keepers have an above-average number of limbs )

 

[Drew]

(Averages are slippery things drstitson: it's a fair bet that an above-average proportion of bee-keepers have an above-average number of limbs )

Te very popular BOABKA might have something to say about that!

British One Armed Beekeepers Assoc