Asking for clarification on Drone Brood

[John R]

I've looked at several threads and want to be specific to my timings and issue of drone brood.
I had a cast swarm form hive number 3 for me on 29th May, then queen left with another cast. issue with QC's so moved a QC on frame from original hive into hive 3 and this hatched on 9th June, but didn't see Q at all. They have had pollen coming in over this period. left alone till yesterday and found 4 frames of drone brood spread over the frames randomly, with gaps, no worker brood that I could see, 2 eggs in a single cell, but couldn't see if there were eggs on the side or back of cells. There was a small Q cup with a tiny lava in it, anr jelly, but no attempt to extend it out.

I have probably 4 to 5 frames of bees in there, ,lots of workers and want to keep the colony alive one way or another, but I'm nervous that I'm running out of time to keep them going with all the drone brood about to hatch and the workers reducing all the time. Searched for the Q for ages and saw nothing:
Do I have a DLQ, laying worker?
Can I put in a frame from another hive, hope for QC build, but will new Q be killed?
If I do this will there even be enough time for the amount of workers to feed and tend a new frame and Q etc by the time she gets grubs hatching again?

Should i empty them out 100 years away, if so what do i do with the brood that's full of drones?

Do I buy a Q and put her in a candy blocked cage and take my chances?

If I have to unite with another colony how best to do this?

Thanks for looking, it's only my 2nd year and I'm keen to learn more, just need these questions going round in my head clarified with the best way forward from more experienced people. I have managed to go from 1 hive to 4 this spring after a AS then double cast swarm, 3 hives are doing well, just this one to sort out, couldn't of done it without this forum.

 

[oliver90owner]

The equivalent of four full frames of brood is not indicative of laying workers. Do you mean that, or are there a few cells scattered over four frames?

will there even be enough time

Should i empty them out 100 years away

There is not THAT much time!!!

You really need to know whether the laying is queen or worker laid brood.

If workers a frame of open brood needs adding at weekly intervals until they draw queen cells. If a DLQ, she needs to be removed in the first instance.

What you do when the appropriate solution is found to the drone laying problem is another matter. Emergency cells for queens, from reducing or weaker colonies are often not that good, so an alternative supply would be better.

The frames 'full' whatever that means (see first para) of drone brood can be recycled, fed to the chickens/other birds, dumped, scraped back to miderib, or whatever you want. Certainly the brood is of no use, but the frames and comb may be.

 

[John R]

Thanks O90, when i said " 4 frames full of DB", I have 4 frames which have each got DB scattered over them, it is not solid in a single mass, more like a shot gun approach.
Hope this clarifies it and thanks for the comments

 

[Tom Bick]

It sounds similar to a hive I looked at this year, expected a DLQ but in the end it was laying workers and I even spotted one laying an egg, how lucky was that.

It was a small hive following an AS, the eggs were all at the bottom of the cells, at first it looked like an inexperienced queen but it all became random drone.

I inspected the hive 3 times over 3 weeks to look for the queen and to finally confirm laying workers, the owner of the hive was happy with this as she had more to learn from it and the hive was surplus and was destined to be reunited so the loss of frames and bees not a great problem.

We finally tipped the bees out on the floor and the first time I have done this myself, it was a small hive at this time and there were two larger hives for them to beg entry, I stood and watched this for over an hour and there was no great problem and the bees seemed to be accepted ok. This strategy is not without risk the colony was weak and a weak colony can be sick and may infect other hives.

There are many threads on the forum on how to deal with laying workers if this is what you have?

 

[susbees]

It sounds similar to a hive I looked at this year, expected a DLQ but in the end it was laying workers and I even spotted one laying an egg, how lucky was that.

It was a small hive following an AS, the eggs were all at the bottom of the cells, at first it looked like an inexperienced queen but it all became random drone.

OP says end of May...LW surely take six weeks or so in a standard hive (apideas quicker). Eggs all at bottom of cells is DLQ and unmated DLQ can be unfindable as small. Random can be inbreeding/varroa/assorted ailments? With DLQ the comb looks messed up due to workers attempts to make things fit...

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes and also refers to an open queen cell on the 9th April but queen not spotted and even if not seen this date would not suggest DLQ?

I think you can get laying workers within 6 weeks it all depends on the bees, more normal to be longer but not impossible all the same.

It may be a DLQ or laying workers.

 

[John R]

Yes, the cells do look messed up, some extended part way and others fully extended to accom' drones - interestingly, this hive has laid more brood than any of the other 2 that have good virgin queens that came from swarm or cast at roughly the same time, unyet I know this have didn't have any brood ahead of the other 2, which makes me think that with so much more total brood (all drone) that it may be multiple workers laying it rather than a single DLQ, why would she lay more than the other good q's? just a thought.

 

[oliver90owner]

which makes me think that with so much more total brood (all drone), that it may be multiple workers laying it rather than a single DLQ,

A single drone laying queen will almost always out-lay umpteen laying workers! Simply 'no contest'. Queens are egg-laying machines; laying workers are still poorly developed in this utility.

 

[isc26]

Interesting cos I was about to ask a very similar question having just inspected one colony with drone brood spread in brood box & in supers in a similar way.

I had assumed DLQ or Laying Worker. I'm thinking of adding a test frame but concerned the colony may now dwindle before new queen starts laying as this one swarmed 22/5.

Think best option may be to unite using paper method but as insurance I will add a Queen Excluder above the lower brood box (this will be the one that definately has a laying quuen in it) Hopefully then if I had missed a queen in the colony that is a problem it won't come into contact with the new queen and fight.

 

[oliver90owner]

I had assumed DLQ or Laying Worker

You are correct! It will be one or the other, if there is no worker brood.

How would that help? There would now be two queens in there and only a single sheet of metal with holes in, to keep them apart while they are trying to kill the other.

If you can't tell the difference between a DLQ and laying worker, a test frame is likely to be useless. The only true result is when queen cells are drawn on a test frame, there is no queen present (and we have found, from ITLD recently, that this result is not always 100% conclusive!).

Relying on a queen excluder could result in further difficulties, so first ascertain if laying worker or DLQ and then take appropriate action. You don't expect to take multiple medications for unconfirmed symptoms? You would go to the doctor and get it diagnosed first, wouldn't you? Same here; diagnose first, treat for the correct problem.

 

[susbees]

It may be a DLQ or laying workers.

"The eggs were all at the bottom of the cells" does not suggest laying workers as per your post. Laying workers lay on pollen cells, up the sides of brood cells (shorter abdomen) with multiple eggs per cell. DLQ...one or two in the bottom.

And unmated DLQ, even in a tiny colony, can often not be found.

 

[John R]

Exactly the issue here, just can't find the darn thing to make a decision one way or the other. weather is so poor today that I can't even do another search, someone said the best thing i can do is empty out the bees where the hive is now and let them find their way into one of the other 3 hives around them, sounds easy and maybe will cause less problems?

 

[Tom Bick]

"The eggs were all at the bottom of the cells" does not suggest laying workers as per your post. Laying workers lay on pollen cells, up the sides of brood cells (shorter abdomen) with multiple eggs per cell. DLQ...one or two in the bottom.

And unmated DLQ, even in a tiny colony, can often not be found.

Yes susbees and I may not have all your experience for me just a meagre 5 years and in that time I have yet to read the book the bees read.

I can only go with my experience of working with three colonies that were laying workers including the one I mentioned.

The first two as you describe classic laying workers eggs all over the place but in the hive I have recently worked with over three weeks trying to decide if laying worker or DLQ I am 99% certain it was laying workers all with the eggs at the bottom of the cells. I did notice a few in pollen cells.

I even spotted a worker laying an egg (or I am convinced I did) imaging my surprise examining the comb and having a worker bee staring straight back at me her head sticking out of a cell as though she was a new emerging bee but with her wings out of the cell pushed forward almost over her head. I watched her for a while and then she pulled herself out and wandered off. I am also 99% confident that this was not a DLQ if it was then she was identical to the workers and had slimmed down from the virgin queen that was spotted in the hive some weeks earlier.

The bees in question in this hive did have longer abdomens than other bees I work with and this will play a part in their ability to lay eggs on the bottom of the cells.

We know that most colonies have a few laying workers in a hive at any one time and this can result in drone brood in supers for instance so it is possible for workers to lay eggs in the base of cells and it is possible a hive of laying workers the eggs are all at the bottom of the cells and not the common egg pattern to laying workers.

Me thinks

 

[Nic Rhodes]

Had a drone layer today, newly mated queen but must have laid up 9 frames of drone brood Found the Queen and squished her (very pretty as well). I may well do a cull of the capped drone brood on sat. There is just too much, wall to wall. I have introduced a capped queen cell for now.