Anti swarm procedure

[eatmorebeans]

Gals and Guys.. (see, already breaking with protocol)

Into my 4th season, so beginning to think I am beginning to feel a bit confident about bees, but much more to learn for sure.

All the anti swarm procedures I have read about focus on separating the flying bees and Q from the rest of the colony, in order to mimic the natural swarm.

I keep reading that when bees swarm they do so with bees of all ages, i.e. nurse bees as well as flying bees. If this is the case, would it not be beneficial to add some nurse bees to the new colony, by shaking some bees off brood frames into it?

Any thoughts?

Tony

 

[enrico]

Take the queen across to her new hive on the frame she is on with whatever is on it except for queen cells, you will get a bit of everything but mainly flying bees.

 

[oliver90owner]

I keep reading that when bees swarm they do so with bees of all ages

Only flying bees go with a swarm, so they don't swarm with bees of all ages. Look up when bees start to fly.

 

[Arfermo]

Any swarm procedure is an opportuity to treat for varroa. Oxalic in fact.

 

[Finman]

Gals and Guys.. (see, already breaking with protocol)


o with bees of all ages, i.e. nurse bees as well as flying bees. If this is the case, would it not be beneficial to add some nurse bees to the new colony, by shaking some bees off brood frames into it?

Any thoughts?

Tony

present brood need their nursers more that future brood.
Don't steel them

 

[Heather]

Take the queen across to her new hive on the frame she is on with whatever is on it except for queen cells, you will get a bit of everything but mainly flying bees.

I beg to differ. Put whole colony on new site but return the queen and some brood to old site, ensuring Q cells stay on new site. The flyers will return to old site as per a swarm consistency. The young bees will stay to care for brood- and new emerging queen.

That's bee keeping for you.

 

[Winker]

you could try Taranov Swarming, how to do it can be found HERE

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I keep reading that when bees swarm they do so with bees of all ages

Only flying bees go with a swarm, so they don't swarm with bees of all ages. Look up when bees start to fly.

Not so - Don't get mired down in dogma: talking to Wally Shaw in the convention about this - the swarm is a complete and perfect organism with bees of all ages flying to their new home (Bees can fly from a young age, it's just they don't because they have other jobs becfore it's time to see the big wide world) One of the main requirements when a swarm finds a new home is wax makers, and who are they? the younger bees!

 

[Skyhook]

One of the main requirements when a swarm finds a new home is wax makers, and who are they? the younger bees!

Although older bees can revert to previous tasks if required- most AS's have only older bees, yet build comb and rear brood like good'uns.

 

[oliver90owner]

Bees can fly from a young age, it's just they don't because they have other jobs becfore it's time to see the big wide world

Not completely true. The generally accepted age for new bees to learn to fly is * days (look it up).

Missed the detail in Enrico's post, I'm afraid. In my rush I thought we were splitting qeen to old site as is normal practice He is misguided as far as a Padgen A/S is concerned. Padgen's method is the most acceted method for A/S.

To **** late when queen cells are present. Action needs to be taken much earlier to avoid swarming - like space requirements, particularly brooding space - or demaree'ing. A/S is a last resort procedure.

 

[Finman]

.
AS does not need extra tricks to get that and that bees, because main idea is to join hive parts again that you can get honey yield. if you do not join hives, you get in late summer 2 fat hives full of brood and nothing more.

It is essential that you separate older bees with queen, they are forced to draw foundations and they think that they have swarmed. Mostly brood hive looses too swarming fever, but it is better to take care that swarm will not escape from there.

That Taranow trick I do not understand what advantages it gives.

.

 

[Hawklord]

I tried moving the queen on 1 frame of brood to a new site but it did nothing due to lack of bees. Once the queen cells were capped in the other side I split them into 3 nucs. I also put the old queen back on the original site but they killed the queen.

 

[masterBK]

Most of the bees in a swarm are relatively young apart from the scout bees which guide the swarm (see graph page 96 in Seeley "honeybee democracy"). This differs very much from the older age structure of an artificial swarm produced by a Pagden. It is true that older bees can switch on their hypopharyngeal glands and feed brood and switch back on their wax glands and build comb but the latter takes a little time for them to get going. This is why it is good practise to give an artificial swarm a couple of frames of drawn comb flanking the comb with the queen on for her to lay in. One of the problems with AS onto just foundation is that you get congestion on the single drawn comb you transferred with the queen and some bees will produce swarm cells on it (and so best to check a week later after setting up the AS. Many didn't do that last year and found that their AS still swarmed)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Although older bees can revert to previous tasks if required- most AS's have only older bees, yet build comb and rear brood like good'uns.

Yes - but A/S and natural swarm are two completely different things

 

[Finman]

One of the problems with AS onto just foundation is that you get congestion on the single drawn comb you transferred with the queen and some bees will produce swarm cells on it (and so best to check a week later after setting up the AS. Many didn't do that last year and found that their AS still swarmed)

when I have made these flying AS, i have noticed that if I give drawn combs to swarm, they often continue swarming fever and start to make new queen cells.

When I put foundations, it often takes couple of days that they start to draw foundations.
It is a sign that they will stay.

I have noticed too that in AS the queen often becomes thinner and after too days it fattens again and starts laying.

Bees seem to have hormonal system which guide them in swarming process. It does not switch off at once.


I remember when I had Carniolan bees 10 years. They were much more difficult to manage when they got swarming into their mind.

But I have been very satisfied with clipped wing + AS. Clipping every queen is essential.

.

 

[galileo]

One of the problems with AS onto just foundation is that you get congestion on the single drawn comb you transferred with the queen and some bees will produce swarm cells on it (and so best to check a week later after setting up the AS. Many didn't do that last year and found that their AS still swarmed)

Guilty as charged... the dear girls were off within 5 days! I was lucky enough to nab them back from the branch of a nearby tree & put them back in the box with a QX underneath for a few days, after which they settled down.

They shredded a frame of foundation for wax until they got back into secreting, but live and learn.

 

[Swarm]

There is no guarantee, I've had a swarm issue from the AS (foundation +1 comb) a couple of hours afterwards.

 

[masterBK]

Swarm : They were obviously close to the point of swarming when you did the AS. It is good practise whenever you do a shook swarm or hive a swarm or an AS onto foundation to put a framed excluder between the floor and the broodchamber for a couple of days (and remember to remove it after that time particularly if there is likely to be a virign Q in the swarm) to stop them absconding.

 

[Finman]

.
Ok, AS is not perfect, but what is better?

 

[masterBK]

Wing clipping the queen usually stops the colony absconding soon after carrying out the AS. Actually I think it is better to be proactive and try to stop them making swarm preparations (= swarm prevention) in the first place (eg carry out Demaree ) rather than being reactive and waiting to discover swarm cells before you do anything (= swarm controls measures like AS) )