Another witch burning

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As I said, the usual pseudo scientific balderdash and just a shout of 'Darwinism' to cover everything whenever challenged
Q: why do you think serious bee breeders try to have isolated sites?

Q: How might such a breeder react if another breeder decided to set up with a different strain half a mile away?
 
Q: why do you think serious bee breeders try to have isolated sites?

Q: How might such a breeder react if another breeder decided to set up with a different strain half a mile away?

You're trying to explain basic animal husbandry and say you're doing the same to your bees, but the two are not even remotely analagous. What trait are you selecting for? Are you controlling your breeding lines? How often are you able to evaluate their performance? How are you controlling the complex environment and resource needs of the hives to produce an equal selection pressure across your colonies towards the trait you are selecting? How are you managing the slow reproduction rate to introduce new genetic variability?

Unless you're not actually undertaking a breeding program and are in fact just using the bees which have performed well, in which case the next genetic mixing from those hives is likely to give rise to different prioritisation and behavior in the next generation, because in reality you haven't selected for anything at all, or if you are you're selecting for different elements that drive their success (more foraging, better thermoregulation, more prolific laying, greater tendency to rob), do you even know which of those is driving their success? Because again, mixing those isn't going to make them better at any one thing.

So, since you have such a grasp of the Biological Truth of darwinism: what trait are you selecting for in your rigorous breeding program?

Or do I need to put in a call to Dunning-Kruger?
 
basic Darwinism doesn't work in a domesticated species. Humans have taken that out of the equations. You seem to be in the position where you have your own local bees that are not impacted by any human interference and still able to make a living from the income off 60 bee hives, albeit without dependents or mortgage. The bee you are looking for from the wild lives in small nests and swarms often which aids disease control. I don't see how you those traits are compatible with a commercial money making bee / honey business.
 
Evidence is not what you need, its knowledge of the mechanism that rules nature, and which breeders routinely imitate. 'Put best to best' is the underlying idea, which is as old as agriculture itself. Finding the male with the gammy leg, and mating him to the female who walks in circles is not, the best strategy.

If you have to call out the vet: fatten it to market. You don't want to be breeding from an individual that need health help.

Your argument is basically 'this idea is better than evidence'. The idea is bunkum if refuted by evidence. You need both.

The metaphor is once again poor. What if said animals both survived joint ill when young, without treatment. In such a case they do not have a genetic basis for the lameness and in fact might have a better immune system than others, so by applying your subjective idea based on your idea of 'fitness', you are applying a selection pressure which is reducing fitness of your stock.

As I and others have said, 'fitness' is a complex concept based on multiple traits and dependent on the environment, likely pressures (and the capability to adapt to novel ones). I'm sorry to say but I really don't think you understand Darwinism, natural selection and artificial selection as much as you make out.
 
Your argument is basically 'this idea is better than evidence'. The idea is bunkum if refuted by evidence. You need both.

The metaphor is once again poor. What if said animals both survived joint ill when young, without treatment. In such a case they do not have a genetic basis for the lameness and in fact might have a better immune system than others, so by applying your subjective idea based on your idea of 'fitness', you are applying a selection pressure which is reducing fitness of your stock.

As I and others have said, 'fitness' is a complex concept based on multiple traits and dependent on the environment, likely pressures (and the capability to adapt to novel ones). I'm sorry to say but I really don't think you understand Darwinism, natural selection and artificial selection as much as you make out.

The phrase 'Darwinism' is itself an odd one - I've genuinely not heard it in anything but a historical or politico-ideological context. The general population is more likely to use the term 'evolution', while STEM tends towards the more specific 'natural selection' when discussing this sort of application. The idea that a beekeeper in a non-isolated setting and without strong experimental controls/facilities would be able to effect any kind of selection pressure on a yearly-reproductive, free-ranging, and frankly still poorly-understood species would I think be rightly regarded with very deep skepticism.
 
You're trying to explain basic animal husbandry and say you're doing the same to your bees, but the two are not even remotely analagous. What trait are you selecting for? Are you controlling your breeding lines? How often are you able to evaluate their performance? How are you controlling the complex environment and resource needs of the hives to produce an equal selection pressure across your colonies towards the trait you are selecting? How are you managing the slow reproduction rate to introduce new genetic variability?

Unless you're not actually undertaking a breeding program and are in fact just using the bees which have performed well, in which case the next genetic mixing from those hives is likely to give rise to different prioritisation and behavior in the next generation, because in reality you haven't selected for anything at all, or if you are you're selecting for different elements that drive their success (more foraging, better thermoregulation, more prolific laying, greater tendency to rob), do you even know which of those is driving their success? Because again, mixing those isn't going to make them better at any one thing.

So, since you have such a grasp of the Biological Truth of darwinism: what trait are you selecting for in your rigorous breeding program?

Mostly I have let natural selection do my selecting for me. That's because natural selection will bring forth those ecotypes that thrive in the present environment unaided.

Now that the basics are in place (bees that thrive unaided) I select from my best performers.

This is the sort of low-level breeding/genetic husbandry that beekeepers have always done.

You are wrong to think the health traits (or any other) will tend to fall out in the next generation. Because my hives are sufficiently numerous and isolated, there is limited input from outside. Further, my choices queenside can make a dramatic difference - if I want to I can replace all hives with the offspring of one or a few chosen queens. I can also support drone production in good hives.

Don't forget all the time non-thrivers are falling out of the genepool.

Again: This is the sort of low-level breeding/genetic husbandry that beekeepers have always done.

Further, it is the foundation of all livestock husbandry

The goal is not to create a fixed breed, like a bulldog, or Jersey. It is simply to locate those genetic combination that tend to supply a good fit to the present environment - which is reflected in the general characterisation 'thriving'.
 
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The phrase 'Darwinism' is itself an odd one - I've genuinely not heard it in anything but a historical or politico-ideological context. The general population is more likely to use the term 'evolution', while STEM tends towards the more specific 'natural selection' when discussing this sort of application. The idea that a beekeeper in a non-isolated setting and without strong experimental controls/facilities would be able to effect any kind of selection pressure on a yearly-reproductive, free-ranging, and frankly still poorly-understood species would I think be rightly regarded with very deep skepticism.

How do you think farmers 3000 years ago selected individuals that became domesticated and semi-domesticated 'improved' races?

How much do you think they knew about experimental controls?

'Poorly understood' doesn't matter in the slightest. The guiding principle, seen as far away as old testament writing and in medieval literature is: 'Put best to best'.

That's it. That's all you have to do to eliminate nature's wasteful process, and compete in agriculture.

Does none of this sound in any way familiar to you?

Darwin, it is well known, engaged in many conversations with pigeon breeders. His coinage 'natural selection' emerged from recognition that what happens in nature is similar to what happens in husbandry. Both processes select - the better-fitting genes, and push them into the next generation. Constantly - in _every_ generation.

The primary outcome is the maintenance of health. In nature, where there are no vets, the benefit of having as your parents the healthiest the previous generation are obvious. In agriculture (where for most of history there have been no vets) the need is to do best for your family and community in what was generally a competitive environment.

Look up the story of Jacob's sheep sometime.
 
Your argument is basically 'this idea is better than evidence'. The idea is bunkum if refuted by evidence. You need both.

The metaphor is once again poor. What if said animals both survived joint ill when young, without treatment. In such a case they do not have a genetic basis for the lameness and in fact might have a better immune system than others, so by applying your subjective idea based on your idea of 'fitness', you are applying a selection pressure which is reducing fitness of your stock.

As I and others have said, 'fitness' is a complex concept based on multiple traits and dependent on the environment, likely pressures (and the capability to adapt to novel ones). I'm sorry to say but I really don't think you understand Darwinism, natural selection and artificial selection as much as you make out.

Ok, refute Darwinism with evidence.

Blenheim bees, and feral varroa-resistant bees worldwide are the evidence. You've seen the papers that speak of them. I'm not going to keep a scientific library on hand so I can keep spoon-feeding you the same information over and over again.
 
Ok, refute Darwinism with evidence.

Blenheim bees, and feral varroa-resistant bees worldwide are the evidence. You've seen the papers that speak of them. I'm not going to keep a scientific library on hand so I can keep spoon-feeding you the same information over and over again.

I'm not arguing against Darwinism but I am disputing your comprehension of both it and breeding.
 
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This seems quite applicable here. Certainly the great confidence is there, combined with an understanding of basic principle but not any real specifics. Combine this with a belief that we seemingly just don't understand "Darwinism" rather than disagree (because how could we, it's so obvious!) and we're not going to get anywhere fast with this.
 
I'm not arguing against Darwinism but I am disputing your comprehension of both it and breeding.

I haven't seen you dispute anything. You just keep on saying 'you are wrong'.

If you want to dispute something you have to say _why_ it is wrong.

Anyone can see I am giving you plenty of opportunities to engage with the issues. And that you don't. You run off then come back and hurl an insult. You've learned the trick of not engaging and simply repeating the charge that the other is' wrong'. It doesn't fool me, and I doubt if it fools most.

See the post above and engage with me. Give me a specific example of _where_ I'm wrong.
 
I haven't seen you dispute anything. You just keep on saying 'you are wrong'.

If you want to dispute something you have to say _why_ it is wrong.

Anyone can see I am giving you plenty of opportunities to engage with the issues. And that you don't. You run off then come back and hurl an insult. You've learned the trick of not engaging and simply repeating the charge that the other is' wrong'. It doesn't fool me, and I doubt if it fools most.

See the post above and engage with me. Give me a specific example of _where_ I'm wrong.
I have. As have others.

Afraid I've again reached my limit with your hypocrisy, so all the best.
 
Mostly I have let natural selection do my selecting for me. That's because natural selection will bring forth those ecotypes that thrive in the present environment unaided.

Now that the basics are in place (bees that thrive unaided) I select from my best performers.

This is the sort of low-level breeding/genetic husbandry that beekeepers have always done.

You are wrong to think the health traits (or any other) will tend to fall out in the next generation. Because my hives are sufficiently numerous and isolated, there is limit input from outside. Further, my choices queenside can make a dramatic difference - if I want to I can replace all hives with the offspring of one or a few chosen queens. I can also support drone production in good hives.

Don't forget all the time non-thrivers are falling out of the genepool.

Again: This is the sort of low-level breeding/genetic husbandry that beekeepers have always done.

Further, it is the foundation of all livestock husbandry

The goal in not to create a fixed breed, like a bulldog, or Jersey. It is simply to locate those genetic combination that tend to supply a good fit to the present environment - which is reflected in the general characterisation 'thriving'.
Is it not possible that what’s happening is you are preserving desirable phenotypes over and over - without necessarily having much impact on the local gene pool. Nothing wrong with this I’d suggest, but successful local bee rearing (which I’m trying to do in a small way myself) may not be much more than this.
 
It seems to me that your observation is from a single point of view, which is coloured by your understanding, you see the 'world' in the context of theories you already hold. Scientific theory should make predictions that can be tested, and the theory rejected if those predictions are shown not to be correct. Interestingly no matter how many observations are made which seemingly confirm a theory there is always the possibility that a future observation could refute it.
 
I have. As have others.

Afraid I've again reached my limit with your hypocrisy, so all the best.
Hypocracy to go with ad hominem!

Where is the hypocrisy?

It seems pretty obvious that you are out of your depth. You can fool all of the people some of the time....

The silly thing is it's an easy pool to swim in.
 
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Is it not possible that what’s happening is you are preserving desirable phenotypes over and over - without necessarily having much impact on the local gene pool. Nothing wrong with this I’d suggest, but successful local bee rearing (which I’m trying to do in a small way myself) may not be much more than this.
I have quite a few hives in a modest area, and there a few other beekeepers nearby. By yes, my influence will diminish with distance.

But what I'm not doing is making life hard for feral bees nearby by sending medication-dependent genes to meet their queens.
 
It seems to me that your observation is from a single point of view, which is coloured by your understanding, you see the 'world' in the context of theories you already hold. Scientific theory should make predictions that can be tested, and the theory rejected if those predictions are shown not to be correct. Interestingly no matter how many observations are made which seemingly confirm a theory there is always the possibility that a future observation could refute it.

Technically, and philosophically, yes. But some things are so well known, examined, and long-time tested that we can fairly regard them as facts.

Evolution by natural selection is one such.

The 'theories I already hold' are the relevant facts. Let's get one thing straight: evolution is not a theory. It's a scientific fact. As such, it can be used along with all the other myriad scientific facts for at least two different things: to make predictions, and to provide explanations.

Evolution and breeding, and that includes (genetic) husbandry are two sides of the same coin, and both are understood in the language and context of the _selection of parents_.

That isn't to say we know all there is to know, in terms of fine mechanism. But....

To be husbandrymen, we don't have to - any more than plant and livestock farmers did 3000 years ago. They knew what worked. Darwin took that and turned it into an explanation for the origins of species, and.... Husbandrymen and breeders carried right on doing their thing.

This level is so simple that uneducated illiterates and village idiots can do it. It's nothing more than simple rule-following.

With a base-level understanding of breeding or evolution - either will do - we can make explanations and predictions about the effects of things on populations. We can make predictions that will require testing, and predictions that we can be confident about without testing - depending on the their nature.

This has been done, many times, in the scientific literature relating to honeybees. In a little corner there has been a discussion of the effects of apiary practices on honey bee populations, both wild/feral and captive. In that literature the base-level facts of evolution are both implicit, and, occasionally, explicit.

I'm not saying anything new here. I'm just saying things in ways that you don't recognise to be properly scientifically founded. You need to shift your focus, and go over the basics. That is, the bottom-level explanations concerning selective parentage, genetic husbandry.
 
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