Amount of frames in national hive

[dto001]

Hello again,

Here's a question which is probably a bit of a silly one but I'm going to ask it anyway.
I have national hive mainly and when I buy them the come with 11 frames but the can fit 12 although the 12th one is a bit tight is there a reason behind this or should I be using spacers between the 11 as I noticed last year the bees didn't do anything on the outer 2 frames whch has me thinking that it is too tight at these frames. could this be the case?
They swarmed twice even though they had 2 frames untouched.

Cheers

 

[Uncle Betty]

As long as bee-space is adhered to, there's nothing wrong with a dozen being snug fom the point of view of the bees working the frames. It makes your job harder though.

I'm on Nationals and use eleven Hoffman frames (so don't need spacers) plus a dummy board nearest to myself, which makes it easier to get the first frame out without rolling the bees. Also gives a bit of leeway when levering propolised frames.

Are you using Hoffman frames ? If you are and you pushed the frame to the wall, you would be sure of correct bee-space on that end at least. So no problem of too tight, and you have to think of another reason why they didn't draw out that frame.

What time of year did you give them the frames ?

 

[dto001]

I am using hoffman frames. Its not just the one frame but 2 one either side.
The frames were put in as soon as I moved the nuc in last march/april.
I have seen them walking on them but only a few bees but they have never drawn them out.

cheers

 

[drex]

I also use 11 frames and a dummy. Makes life so much easier. In my wooden hives they are always reluctant to draw out the outer face of the outside combs, unless a really strong colony. I suggest you just put a comb already drawn against the outside. Move the undrawn towards the centre where it is warmer ( when inspection time comes). Lack of space is only one reason behind swarming.

 

[Little John]

The problem ain't nothing to do with the frames being 'Hoffman' - that's just a method of self-spacing. The problem of the 11 vs 12 with Nationals is due to just about every manufacturer of off-the-shelf frames making them 35mm wide - as if there were such a thing as a 'one-size-fit's-all' beehive frame.

But bees come in different sizes, hence the 'beespace' isn't just one fixed measurement, but a range of values, and likewise - frame-spacing also varies according to the size of bee.

But - beekeepers being beekeepers - there is a tendency to believe that what is commercially supplied must be right. Which is so much cobblers. 35mm was chosen as a compromise width between a typical brood comb and a typical stores comb - and therefore it's very often not ideal for either function.

Take away the Hoffman 'fixed' spacing, and things become very different. My girls (natural-sized bees) are happiest on 33-34mm spacing, which means 12 per National box without any difficulty.

As Drex says, move the outside combs inwards to get them drawn-out. If your bees swarm 'at the drop of a hat', it may be that your hives are simply too small for those bees. I haven't had a colony swarm for years, but then many of my hives are large volume, and I'm always pinching combs from the smaller volume hives, so they never get the urge to swarm, as they're always playing 'catch-up'.

In general terms, you could do a lot worse than run larger volume hives, and dummy down the excess space as required, either with a partition board or dummy frames - depending on the type of hive.
LJ

Oh - forgot to add:
"Here's a question which is probably a bit of a silly one ..."
There's no such thing as a silly question. Only silly answers.

 

[Hivemaker.]

All of our brood/deep frames are on 38mm hoffman spacing, so only 11 fit into a standard national deep.

 

[Dadnlad]

In mid winter in the shed with a brand new broodbox and brand new frames I can fit 12 in, by mid summer the little darlings will have propolised and braced them up enough that 11 and a dummy is the least stressfull option (for them and me)

 

[Barbarian]

For years, I used 11 Hoffman frames + a dummy board in my National brood boxes. I got fed up of scraping the wax and propolis off the shoulders. I have recently changed to using 11 space metal spacers in the brood box. A slightly different working technique. I can use my old Hoffman frames with a gap between the shoulders and new frames are straight sided.

 

[enrico]

For years, I used 11 Hoffman frames + a dummy board in my National brood boxes. I got fed up of scraping the wax and propolis off the shoulders. I have recently changed to using 11 space metal spacers in the brood box. A slightly different working technique. I can use my old Hoffman frames with a gap between the shoulders and new frames are straight sided.

Likewise, I use the plastic top bar spacers. So easy, don't crush bees, help me to lift and turn the frames. Easy to remove and clean and means frames are cheaper to buy. Others will disagree but works for me
E

 

[Uncle Betty]

The problem ain't nothing to do with the frames being 'Hoffman' - that's just a method of self-spacing.

Exactly.

The specific concern of the OP...

last year the bees didn't do anything on the outer 2 frames whch has me thinking that it is too tight at these frames.

Well, if the bee-space is ok, and the OP will have to judge that... and the frames are self-spacing, then twelve frames tight in the box is not the reason why the outer frames are not being drawn.

It being the Beginners forum, perhaps you could expand on this...

the 'beespace' isn't just one fixed measurement, but a range of values

People with less practical experience are understandably apt to take for granted what they read in the books ie that there are only two bee-spaces - one in the brood box, and a different one in the supers.


.

 

[drex]

For me a " bee space" is the space for two bees to work back to back, for example one on each face of opposing combs. Quoted as 8-9 mm. Spacing in supers is a matter of how deep they will draw the combs. If drawing out foundation the combs need to be closer together, some would say 11 frames in a super, once drawn they can be spaced at 9 per super. I settle for having 10 in all my supers. The closer spacing is said to encourage flat combs, once drawn, hence easier to uncap. I am keeping it simple here, bearing in mind this is the beginners section.

 

[Poly Hive]

Actually.... It is true to say bees find it easier to draw out comb when the faces of the foundation are closer. However that in turn does not mean it is impossible as I give my hives supers of foundation in Manley frames and they draw them out fine. Why? I only work for cut comb these days.

A useful trick for the beginners is when you have say three frames in the middle of the super drawn or close to it is to move the outer two out by one and put in two with foundation in their place. When they are being worked on and well on then repeat and so on. When you are ready for the next super take two combs from the first one and of course replace with two foundation and in the new super put the combs in the middle with of course a foundation in between and so on and so on....

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

For me a " bee space" is the space for two bees to work back to back, for example one on each face of opposing combs. Quoted as 8-9 mm. Spacing in supers is a matter of how deep they will draw the combs. If drawing out foundation the combs need to be closer together, some would say 11 frames in a super, once drawn they can be spaced at 9 per super. I settle for having 10 in all my supers. The closer spacing is said to encourage flat combs, once drawn, hence easier to uncap. I am keeping it simple here, bearing in mind this is the beginners section.

"Bee space" is the distance the bees leave between the edges of 2 fully drawn combs. The spacing of the frames apart tends to set how far the foundation has to be drawn to create the bee space. 10 frames in a super will have deeper cells than 11 frames. It's also the distance between the outside edges of the frames and sides of the box.

 

[Uncle Betty]

"Bee space" is the distance the bees leave between the edges of 2 fully drawn combs. The spacing of the frames apart tends to set how far the foundation has to be drawn to create the bee space. 10 frames in a super will have deeper cells than 11 frames. It's also the distance between the outside edges of the frames and sides of the box.

Could I ask you for a source for that, please ?

 

[Poly Hive]

Langstroth!

PH

 

[Uncle Betty]

Langstroth!

PH

I'll see your Langstroth, and raise you Jan Dzierzon. But that's just history and chronology.

I'm more interested to read about the idea of a single bee-space as I think (sorry if I'm mis-reading) Beefriendly is implying, and more especially one that as Little John says, has a 'range of values'.

That's a point of view shared by de Bruyn, p.71 of 'Practical Beekeeping'.

On the other hand, Hooper specifies two distinct bee-spaces, as does the Haynes book.

The Dave Cushman website specifically says...

We all "KNOW" that bee space is between 4.5 mm and 8 mm and it is also widely reported as being between 6 mm and 9 mm. However it is not a "variable" quantity, it is either 5.3 mm + or - 0.5 mm or it is 9.0 mm + 0.0 mm - 1.0 mm. In other words there are two distinct bands of possible bee space and these occur because in some situations the bees will work individually, but in other situations they need to be able to work back to back.

Cheers.

 

[44Whitehall]

@Little John can you please explain your reference to larger volume hives? Are these 14x12 boxes, double brood or larger format hives than British nationals?


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[Beefriendly]

I'll see your Langstroth, and raise you Jan Dzierzon. But that's just history and chronology.

I'm more interested to read about the idea of a single bee-space as I think (sorry if I'm mis-reading) Beefriendly is implying,
.

Nope, never mentioned single bee space so no idea where you got that from.
You really need to read Huber's original work on his assistants and wife's observations on his leaf hive (Huber was blind).
Langstroth was just the guy who put his practical observations into useful practice.

 

[Poly Hive]

Yes Langstroth was the guy who Mobus described as the man who shouted "Eureka"

There was a moveable comb hive in use in Scotland pre Langstroth, and no doubt other places had the same sort of thing. The Scottish one was called the Stewarton and there is a rather good story regarding it.

PH

 

[Uncle Betty]

Nope, never mentioned single bee space so no idea where you got that from.
You really need to read Huber's original work on his assistants and wife's observations on his leaf hive (Huber was blind).
Langstroth was just the guy who put his practical observations into useful practice.

Just to clarify -

Drex stated...

For me a " bee space" is the space for two bees to work back to back, for example one on each face of opposing combs. Quoted as 8-9 mm.

And you responded with



Which could be interpreted as you agreeing with a single 'bee space' dimension (of 8-9mm, that is).

Whereas other sources, such as Hooper, Haynes, and Cushman disagree.

But no harm done. It's an interesting topic. I remember reading something of Huber before, so will delve into that a bit more now. Thanks for the reference.

Cheers.