Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Swarm]

Some time ago I found a single cell with the Oak tree colony and moved the queen to a new hive. The last time I inspected, I found another single cell so I decided to leave them to it, I hadn't seen the queen but I wasn't concerned as there was BIAS and it was obvious they had decided the old girl had come to the end of her time. After doing some routine stuff today, I decided to have a look and check their status. Three frames in I found sealed worker brood, as I got to the central frames I found a nice frame of eggs and tiny larvae so had a close look and spotted a lovely, dark unmarked queen trotting over the comb. As the next frame was the one I marked, I had a quick look to check the cell remnants and who should I see, calmly walking about? The old, white queen.

 

[Penninetrader]

I am a big softie so that story made my day

 

[Swarm]

What a strange bunch we are getting attached to insects, eh?
As things stand, because she won't be around next year , I will have her daughter in this hive and I already have another daughter in the original hive, currently sitting under six supers
Not forgetting ....

And this little virgin from the Oak tree queen went to my friend's apiary. The picture shows her being run in and making straight for a cell of nectar, acceptance was flawless.
View attachment 40360

So three of her progeny and time will tell if they follow the same traits, as the Oak tree queen herself was the result of supersedure. The supersedure line traces back to 2017 which was the last sign of swarming, when they left their hive and swarmed into an empty nuc on the same stand as witnessed by the landowner. They have been in the same location since then and we've had some fun over the years. One memorable occasion was a huge cluster of bees under the hive after I sealed up some 'home made' new entrances the bees had made at the rear of their floor. I forgot to consider how long they'd been using them (which was obviously quite some time) and they were returning to find no entrance, undershooting the gap and collecting on the OMF. The colony was massive at the time and they were quite upset being messed about, we had to brush them off onto a sheet, and block off the OMF to stop them returning. The hive was directly above the stand support so that made life more difficult. I can honestly say the bees followed that day but I forgave them.

 

[Swarm]

So we are done and dusted for another season, the honey is off and the bees are settled, all that remains is to complete Autumn treatments and tuck the bees away for another Winter. Seasons don't seem to last very long any more.
We seemed to wait ages this year before we opened any hives and then we had weeks and weeks wondering if the rain would ever cease but the bees still had the remnants of their Winter stores to see them through this miserable period. Nothing stops the bees and I knew they would be building and would go through their routine, rain or no rain and as expected, the cells began to appear by the end of April or early May. I really don't mind this as I find these early queens have always been reliable and the honey crop is rarely affected, nothing worse than a colony hitting swarm mode just as Summer is about to start.
At my friend's apiary he had a raft of failed matings which we were able to fix with a few nice virgins from cells harvested at the farm apiary and here I had my star colony for the year, a colony headed by a 2023 Amm. Despite having eighteen frames of brood and bees removed to create nucs, they were still a large colony and made 148 lbs of honey and the four new queens they provided are now heading their own colonies.
We sold a few colonies at the start of the year and they all went on to do well apart from one where I had to break the news to the new beekeeper that he had missed a swarm. That was disappointing because I had been through this colony with him earlier on and it was a double brood and heaving with the most docile bees.
The honey crop average was down this year to 71 lbs per production hive, they are currently thumping the Balsam and also lots of Ivy pollen going in, a week of half decent weather forecast so I expect the stench of Ivy this week as I treat the hives.
Each year we feed less and less, only the nucs and single boxes have had a feed and this is just a small slurp of half a gallon to make up for losing their supers.

 

[Lislarybees]

It was a terrible year for beekeepers in the part of the north west of Ireland where I live. Really cold overall with a lot of rain and few foraging days. On top of that I decided 2024 was the year to set up an Amm Queen rearing group.
In the end the skills I learnt grafting and managing Apideas made my beekeeping year! If you can raise some mated queens in the conditions we had it should be (fingers crossed) a breeze in a better Summer!

In more recent developments over here and somewhat out of the blue - the bill to ban imports of non-native subspecies of honeybee into Ireland suddenly progressed through the Seanad (like the House of Lords in the UK). This Bill which has taken a lot of work by a cohort of very hard working campaigners had been somewhat stalled by a decision by our department of agriculture via the Attorney General to look for further information before allowing the Bill to proceed. A number of studies have been commissioned and a very important one has just been published - this may have spurred the department on! Now it has to pass through the lower house of government - The Dáil.

Hopefully this will progress quickly now and give some respite to beekeepers here struggling to deal with the negative impact of hybridisation.

For those interested here is a link to the paper and to the discussion in the Seanad on Wednesday.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2024.2404297

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2024-10-16/9/

 

[Penninetrader]

It was a terrible year for beekeepers in the part of the north west of Ireland where I live. Really cold overall with a lot of rain and few foraging days. On top of that I decided 2024 was the year to set up an Amm Queen rearing group.
In the end the skills I learnt grafting and managing Apideas made my beekeeping year! If you can raise some mated queens in the conditions we had it should be (fingers crossed) a breeze in a better Summer!

In more recent developments over here and somewhat out of the blue - the bill to ban imports of non-native subspecies of honeybee into Ireland suddenly progressed through the Seanad (like the House of Lords in the UK). This Bill which has taken a lot of work by a cohort of very hard working campaigners had been somewhat stalled by a decision by our department of agriculture via the Attorney General to look for further information before allowing the Bill to proceed. A number of studies have been commissioned and a very important one has just been published - this may have spurred the department on! Now it has to pass through the lower house of government - The Dáil.

Hopefully this will progress quickly now and give some respite to beekeepers here struggling to deal with the negative impact of hybridisation.

For those interested here is a link to the paper and to the discussion in the Seanad on Wednesday.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2024.2404297

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2024-10-16/9/

Several aspects of this post very much interest me not least Apideas, I was contemplating these again today. I know the theory but how did you do it in practice. I was wondering to go with 2 frame nucs or apideas.

 

[Penninetrader]

It was a terrible year for beekeepers in the part of the north west of Ireland where I live. Really cold overall with a lot of rain and few foraging days. On top of that I decided 2024 was the year to set up an Amm Queen rearing group.
In the end the skills I learnt grafting and managing Apideas made my beekeeping year! If you can raise some mated queens in the conditions we had it should be (fingers crossed) a breeze in a better Summer!

In more recent developments over here and somewhat out of the blue - the bill to ban imports of non-native subspecies of honeybee into Ireland suddenly progressed through the Seanad (like the House of Lords in the UK). This Bill which has taken a lot of work by a cohort of very hard working campaigners had been somewhat stalled by a decision by our department of agriculture via the Attorney General to look for further information before allowing the Bill to proceed. A number of studies have been commissioned and a very important one has just been published - this may have spurred the department on! Now it has to pass through the lower house of government - The Dáil.

Hopefully this will progress quickly now and give some respite to beekeepers here struggling to deal with the negative impact of hybridisation.

For those interested here is a link to the paper and to the discussion in the Seanad on Wednesday.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2024.2404297

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/seanad/2024-10-16/9/

The AMM development particularly interests me but and there is always a but, historically there was an almost complete wipeout of honey bees in Ireland requiring a reintroduction. The Irish scientist, a lady, I forget her name, had done extensive research of native bees and this re introduction. She had discovered via this research that non native bees reverted progressively in subsequent generations, via mating with local drones, towards AMM genetics. Barring non native can be a double edged sword. Nature is complex and we have already intervened which is irrevocable, mitigation being the best we can hope for. I wish you much success and please keep us informed.

 

[Lislarybees]

The AMM development particularly interests me but and there is always a but, historically there was an almost complete wipeout of honey bees in Ireland requiring a reintroduction. The Irish scientist, a lady, I forget her name, had done extensive research of native bees and this re introduction. She had discovered via this research that non native bees reverted progressively in subsequent generations, via mating with local drones, towards AMM genetics. Barring non native can be a double edged sword. Nature is complex and we have already intervened which is irrevocable, mitigation being the best we can hope for. I wish you much success and please keep us informed.

I’m sorry but none of that is accurate. If you read the paper I linked above it looks at some of that information although it is not the main topic of the study. I can supply you with more papers that look at the genetic diversity within the Amm population in Ireland. Or better again Dr. Grace McCormack the leading expert in this field has a number of great YouTube videos.

There were some Dutch imports but they only show up in a portion of the Irish Amm population. What we can see now is that there are populations of bees in Ireland that have genetic markers distinct to any so far found in European Amm populations and that there is huge diversity between bees in apiaries 15/20 km up the road from each other.

There is a lot of misinformation spread about Amm by those that profit from its demise. And that starts with Brother Adam. Thankfully real science is now dispelling the myths.

 

[Lislarybees]

Several aspects of this post very much interest me not least Apideas, I was contemplating these again today. I know the theory but how did you do it in practice. I was wondering to go with 2 frame nucs or apideas.

My preferred method of queen rearing is to induce a colony that I am very happy with to produce queen cells. Then distribute the naturally raised cells amongst double framed nucs. This method is relatively resource heavy but is great if you want to produce the best queens in small numbers.

My interest in Apideas really stems from the Native Irish Honey Bee society advocating their use and including them as the primary method of queen rearing in their queen rearing group scheme. I can definitely see how producing larger numbers of mated queens would be ‘easier’ with Apideas.

Best wishes,
Colin

 

[Penninetrader]

I’m sorry but none of that is accurate. If you read the paper I linked above it looks at some of that information although it is not the main topic of the study. I can supply you with more papers that look at the genetic diversity within the Amm population in Ireland. Or better again Dr. Grace McCormack the leading expert in this field has a number of great YouTube videos.

There were some Dutch imports but they only show up in a portion of the Irish Amm population. What we can see now is that there are populations of bees in Ireland that have genetic markers distinct to any so far found in European Amm populations and that there is huge diversity between bees in apiaries 15/20 km up the road from each other.

There is a lot of misinformation spread about Amm by those that profit from its demise. And that starts with Brother Adam. Thankfully real science is now dispelling the myths.

I think your Doctor Grace is one of those who I have been gathering information from. This is clearly ongoing research. You obviously have more knowledge than myself on this subject matter and it is great that you are defending, rather, championing the AMM's corner. My inclination is in that direction. Seems the bees are much like us humans in that the majority do not travel far and that is just about 20 miles. I would have scores of questions on this so I had best read the papers. Any others you could link to I would also have a go at. Thank you for the reply but don't forget my Amadeas question.

 

[Rory Fields]

I’m sorry but none of that is accurate. If you read the paper I linked above it looks at some of that information although it is not the main topic of the study. I can supply you with more papers that look at the genetic diversity within the Amm population in Ireland. Or better again Dr. Grace McCormack the leading expert in this field has a number of great YouTube videos.

There were some Dutch imports but they only show up in a portion of the Irish Amm population. What we can see now is that there are populations of bees in Ireland that have genetic markers distinct to any so far found in European Amm populations and that there is huge diversity between bees in apiaries 15/20 km up the road from each other.

There is a lot of misinformation spread about Amm by those that profit from its demise. And that starts with Brother Adam. Thankfully real science is now dispelling the myths.

I don't have any skin in the amm/buckfast debate, but don't you find the blacker bees (I've not had any analysed but gave bought from amm suppliers) prone to chalkbrood? I don't mind if my bees are blue, just after health and good temperament with honey production a long way down mh itinerary. Cheers, Ror

 

[Penninetrader]

I don't have any skin in the amm/buckfast debate, but don't you find the blacker bees (I've not had any analysed but gave bought from amm suppliers) prone to chalkbrood? I don't mind if my bees are blue, just after health and good temperament with honey production a long way down mh itinerary. Cheers, Ror

Blue ? Avatar bees then

 

[Lislarybees]

I think your Doctor Grace is one of those who I have been gathering information from. This is clearly ongoing research. You obviously have more knowledge than myself on this subject matter and it is great that you are defending, rather, championing the AMM's corner. My inclination is in that direction. Seems the bees are much like us humans in that the majority do not travel far and that is just about 20 miles. I would have scores of questions on this so I had best read the papers. Any others you could link to I would also have a go at. Thank you for the reply but don't forget my Amadeas question.

Learning to manage apideas is a bit of a faff. Grafting and raising cells is the easy part in many ways. I guess like anything it will become second nature.
So what our group did was to have an apidea set up with fondant in the reservoir. Then we’d shake nurse bees into a plastic bowl - give a quick swirl and shake and a misting of water with a hand spray. We’d scoop 300ml of bees up out of the bowl and into the upturned apidea and then drop a marked virgin queen in straight after. Then we kept the apideas closed but vent open in a dark place before setting them up in a mating apiary. This was in a wooded area so they were protected from direct sun.
Then we waited for the queens to be mated and topped up with fondant as necessary.
Mating was very dependent on weather - as to be expected. We had quite reasonable levels of mating I would say - especially considering the weather.
I would say it’s very easy for newly mated queens and their mini colonies to abscond though - so careful timing must be observed and I would say that was our biggest failing. You should have a clear plan for each queen and act in a timely fashion. Also some queens were mated very late. Which causes its own problems - trying to requeen or make up nucs in late September is less than ideal so I have a couple of queens still in Apideas with really the only choice now to see if they can overwinter in them. From what I’ve heard - this is rarely that successful.
Late matings give less time to assess the offspring of the newly mated queens so for some it will be next year before we can see if there is any yellow banding.

There’s lots to it in many ways so I’m kind of skimming over it. The most important thing was to get started and so begin the learning process!

 

[Lislarybees]

Learning to manage apideas is a bit of a faff. Grafting and raising cells is the easy part in many ways. I guess like anything it will become second nature.
So what our group did was to have an apidea set up with fondant in the reservoir. Then we’d shake nurse bees into a plastic bowl - give a quick swirl and shake and a misting of water with a hand spray. We’d scoop 300ml of bees up out of the bowl and into the upturned apidea and then drop a marked virgin queen in straight after. Then we kept the apideas closed but vent open in a dark place before setting them up in a mating apiary. This was in a wooded area so they were protected from direct sun.
Then we waited for the queens to be mated and topped up with fondant as necessary.
Mating was very dependent on weather - as to be expected. We had quite reasonable levels of mating I would say - especially considering the weather.
I would say it’s very easy for newly mated queens and their mini colonies to abscond though - so careful timing must be observed and I would say that was our biggest failing. You should have a clear plan for each queen and act in a timely fashion. Also some queens were mated very late. Which causes its own problems - trying to requeen or make up nucs in late September is less than ideal so a couple of queens still in Apideas with really the only choice now to see if they can overwinter in them. From what I’ve heard - this is rarely that successful.
Late matings give less time to assess the offspring of the newly mated queens so for some it will be next year before we can see if there is any yellow banding.

There’s lots to it in many ways so I’m kind of skimming over it. The most important thing was to get started and so begin the learning process!

Just to boil it down - if I was working on my own I’d use two frame nucs for sure. Just to buy myself more room to manoeuvre time wise. You just need adequate resources to make up the nucs - but you also need resources to make up apideas. Just less

 

[Lislarybees]

 

[Lislarybees]

An older one

 

[Lislarybees]

At the 36 minute mark there’s discussion of groupings of bees around Ireland by genetic markers. That suggest local adaptation

 

[Curly green finger's]

My preferred method of queen rearing is to induce a colony that I am very happy with to produce queen cells. Then distribute the naturally raised cells amongst double framed nucs. This method is relatively resource heavy but is great if you want to produce the best queens in small numbers.

My interest in Apideas really stems from the Native Irish Honey Bee society advocating their use and including them as the primary method of queen rearing in their queen rearing group scheme. I can definitely see how producing larger numbers of mated queens would be ‘easier’ with Apideas.

Best wishes,
Colin

Interesting one of my favourite ways is to induce a colony after demaree manipulation then splitting the top box into nucs to finish cells and removing any extra cells to the incubator for mini nucs or 2-6 frame made up nucs with virgin queens.

Even strong three frame nucs finish cells of really well

 

[Lislarybees]

I don’t have big problems with chalk brood. I think selection helps a lot here.
I have some slightly different thoughts on chalk brood overall though. I think trying to eradicate it completely is very difficult in a cold damp climate. Any I ever see seems to correlate to climatic conditions.

 

[Penninetrader]

Just to boil it down - if I was working on my own I’d use two frame nucs for sure. Just to buy myself more room to manoeuvre time wise. You just need adequate resources to make up the nucs - but you also need resources to make up apideas. Just less

The 2 frame would probably serve my purpose better and everything will depend on what I am confronted with come spring, broodwise. This about timing queens and absconding, how do you manage that ? My thoughts are that the apideas and 2 frame nucs would need an early season start to avoid being weak once wasp season kicks in. Based on what you say I am inclined towards the 2 frames. How long does an apidea take to strengthen to a small nuc ? a lot to think on. Thank you