Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[elainemary]

Is that accurate enough these days?

Suppose depends on who’s wanting to find out more…keen amateur using their own resources or an expert

Understand morphology is accurate for comparison between pure species as there are significant differences in measurements. Eg AMM vs AMC
Can be used by the keen amateur together with other clues eg tomenta, tongue length, body hair colour, to then make their own judgements on level of purity and likely degrees of hybridisation.

Is dna analysis available & do you know the cost?

 

[Erichalfbee]

DNA is used. I don’t know the cost, sorry.
I’m wondering what the difference for a hobbyist v an expert for “nearly Amm” and “definitely Amm” is?

 

[Lislarybees]

Suppose depends on who’s wanting to find out more…keen amateur using their own resources or an expert

Understand morphology is accurate for comparison between pure species as there are significant differences in measurements. Eg AMM vs AMC
Can be used by the keen amateur together with other clues eg tomenta, tongue length, body hair colour, to then make their own judgements on level of purity and likely degrees of hybridisation.

Is dna analysis available & do you know the cost?

Beebytes offer DNA analysis Beebytes
In Ireland currently NUIG (University of Galway) is offering testing for free. That is part of ongoing studies mapping the level of hybridisation throughout the country.

 

[elainemary]

DNA is used. I don’t know the cost, sorry.
I’m wondering what the difference for a hobbyist v an expert for “nearly Amm” and “definitely Amm” is?

not sure myself...hard to put categories around motivations, so tried to keep simple...

 

[Do224]

DNA is used. I don’t know the cost, sorry.
I’m wondering what the difference for a hobbyist v an expert for “nearly Amm” and “definitely Amm” is?

Realistically, is there any such thing as ‘definitely AMM’? Isn’t ‘nearly AMM’ about as good as it gets?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Realistically, is there any such thing as ‘definitely AMM’? Isn’t ‘nearly AMM’ about as good as it gets?

I would hope so but define nearly

 

[Murox]

Well “nearly' means 'almost', or 'not quite'as one would like them to be rather than as they really are;

 

[Swarm]

Thinking too negatively.
I wonder if there is any pure sub species these days? Probably near is about as good as you are going to get, with any of them, even island mating stations have hiccups.
I observed our bees over a number of years, they seemed to me, to resemble Amm in all aspects and I've done direct comparisons with colonies of Amm since then, they are practically identical, appearance, behaviour, characteristics. There are occasionally a few ginger bands here and there in some but most colonies are uniform, dark bees. I wouldn't pay for DNA testing, I just took advantage of an opportunity to get colonies tested, again out of curiosity to confirm or dismiss my suspicions.

At the farm apiary today with a visitor along to see the InstantVap in operation, he was quite surprised when I explained that none of them were Amm, all local queens raised at the farm. The sun came out towards the end of treating so I picked this colony at random as they were basking in the sunshine. One of our single brood queens, these produced six supers and the hive was rammed to the rafters. Uniform bees.
All colonies are still very populous, I didn't risk leaving the vaping ekes on, there were huge clumps of bees gathered in them as I went around taking them off. They'd be full of comb by next visit I reckon, I need to make shallower ones.
No Ivy scent and not a lot of Ivy pollen coming in despite a fair amount in flower but the hives are all nicely heavy at the moment. Almost all over again, time to plan for next year.

 

[Do224]

Thinking too negatively.
I wonder if there is any pure sub species these days? Probably near is about as good as you are going to get, with any of them, even island mating stations have hiccups.
I observed our bees over a number of years, they seemed to me, to resemble Amm in all aspects and I've done direct comparisons with colonies of Amm since then, they are practically identical, appearance, behaviour, characteristics. There are occasionally a few ginger bands here and there in some but most colonies are uniform, dark bees. I wouldn't pay for DNA testing, I just took advantage of an opportunity to get colonies tested, again out of curiosity to confirm or dismiss my suspicions.

At the farm apiary today with a visitor along to see the InstantVap in operation, he was quite surprised when I explained that none of them were Amm, all local queens raised at the farm. The sun came out towards the end of treating so I picked this colony at random as they were basking in the sunshine. One of our single brood queens, these produced six supers and the hive was rammed to the rafters. Uniform bees.
All colonies are still very populous, I didn't risk leaving the vaping ekes on, there were huge clumps of bees gathered in them as I went around taking them off. They'd be full of comb by next visit I reckon, I need to make shallower ones.
No Ivy scent and not a lot of Ivy pollen coming in despite a fair amount in flower but the hives are all nicely heavy at the moment. Almost all over again, time to plan for next year.

Based on what you’re saying, I think I might as well assume mine are AMM as well…

 

[mbc]

DNA is used. I don’t know the cost, sorry.
I’m wondering what the difference for a hobbyist v an expert for “nearly Amm” and “definitely Amm” is?

I think the major difference to spot on the coal face would be the closer to "definitely Amm" you get the more consistency you'll see in her daughters.

 

[mbc]

Realistically, is there any such thing as ‘definitely AMM’? Isn’t ‘nearly AMM’ about as good as it gets?

There is the "definitely nearly all Amm" sub category

 

[mbc]

Thinking too negatively.
I wonder if there is any pure sub species these days? Probably near is about as good as you are going to get, with any of them, even island mating stations have hiccups.
I observed our bees over a number of years, they seemed to me, to resemble Amm in all aspects and I've done direct comparisons with colonies of Amm since then, they are practically identical, appearance, behaviour, characteristics. There are occasionally a few ginger bands here and there in some but most colonies are uniform, dark bees. I wouldn't pay for DNA testing, I just took advantage of an opportunity to get colonies tested, again out of curiosity to confirm or dismiss my suspicions.

At the farm apiary today with a visitor along to see the InstantVap in operation, he was quite surprised when I explained that none of them were Amm, all local queens raised at the farm. The sun came out towards the end of treating so I picked this colony at random as they were basking in the sunshine. One of our single brood queens, these produced six supers and the hive was rammed to the rafters. Uniform bees.
All colonies are still very populous, I didn't risk leaving the vaping ekes on, there were huge clumps of bees gathered in them as I went around taking them off. They'd be full of comb by next visit I reckon, I need to make shallower ones.
No Ivy scent and not a lot of Ivy pollen coming in despite a fair amount in flower but the hives are all nicely heavy at the moment. Almost all over again, time to plan for next year.

Spot on, the purest island mated carnies in Germany were found to have vestiges of Amm dna 80 odd years after they went all out for carnies.
I don't believe this downgraded their esteem of the bees or made a scrap of difference practically but if you want to see angels on pin heads you've only got to look long and hard enough.

 

[Swarm]

Based on what you’re saying, I think I might as well assume mine are AMM as well…

As near as to not make much difference? I believe Northumberland Honey rear their dark queens in Cumbria. You've caught a number of swarms, do you have an idea where they are coming from?

 

[Do224]

As near as to not make much difference? I believe Northumberland Honey rear their dark queens in Cumbria. You've caught a number of swarms, do you have an idea where they are coming from?

I don’t know where they’re coming from but there is quite a big ancient woodland about a mile away so perhaps from there. Then again I’m also in a large village so there will likely be a few beekeepers too.

I only had one marked queen in the eight swarms I’ve caught and that swarm was completely different to the others…the queen and bees were orange and they were much less defensive. She swarmed two months later and I combined the bees with one of the other hives, so all my remaining queens are jet black

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think the major difference to spot on the coal face would be the closer to "definitely Amm" you get the more consistency you'll see in her daughters.

That makes sense.

 

[Jo Widdicombe]

I think the major difference to spot on the coal face would be the closer to "definitely Amm" you get the more consistency you'll see in her daughters.

Yes I think that is the point.
People love arguing about which is the best type of bees but the real question is, what is the easiest way to get consistency into our bees so that progress can be made in selection and improvement.
I do not think any other strain can be maintained in our conditions without the constant input of new stock. Without input of imports nature will tend towards the native strain so we need to take advantage of that trend.
Complete purity is not really the issue, breeding true is.

 

[user 20297]

Yes I think that is the point.
People love arguing about which is the best type of bees but the real question is, what is the easiest way to get consistency into our bees so that progress can be made in selection and improvement.
I do not think any other strain can be maintained in our conditions without the constant input of new stock. Without input of imports nature will tend towards the native strain so we need to take advantage of that trend.
Complete purity is not really the issue, breeding true is.

This forum might be a good place for a thread where we can upload images of our "black" (or other coloured) bees for comparison. If everyone used a (previously) healthy, dead bee, photographed and displayed in a consistent way, we might gradually see consistencies in appearance that would provide anecdotal evidence to support beekeepers' claims that their bees are (near) native or when others question their interpretation of what they have.

 

[Swarm]

This forum might be a good place for a thread where we can upload images of our "black" (or other coloured) bees for comparison. If everyone used a (previously) healthy, dead bee, photographed and displayed in a consistent way, we might gradually see consistencies in appearance that would provide anecdotal evidence to support beekeepers' claims that their bees are (near) native or when others question their interpretation of what they have.

If anyone suspects they have colonies of native or Amm, then feel free to post pictures here. I don't think they need to be dead though, with photo resolution being what it is these days. It would be worthwhile adding some photos of the brood nest as well.
Here are some close up photos which offer the opportunity for comparison with the bees.
No doubt there are regional variations, I think Elainemary's native bees seemed darker than mine, I may be wrong.
I just added the hive entrance photo for comparison with the Amm in the first as these are from her daughter, mated at the farm.

 

[user 20297]

If anyone suspects they have colonies of native or Amm, then feel free to post pictures here. I don't think they need to be dead though, with photo resolution being what it is these days. It would be worthwhile adding some photos of the brood nest as well.
Here are some close up photos which offer the opportunity for comparison with the bees.
No doubt there are regional variations, I think Elainemary's native bees seemed darker than mine, I may be wrong.
I just added the hive entrance photo for comparison with the Amm in the first as these are from her daughter, mated at the farm.

Ideally, who wants to see any dead bees....especially ones that you've deliberately given the chop? I was meaning that by having typical specimens photographed in a consistent way, ie. motionless, and from the top, the side and underneath, captured with the macro setting on our phones. You would have a quasi-scientific database for comparisons.
That's good idea, photos giving an idea of the brood-nest size and shape as well.

 

[Erichalfbee]

by having typical specimens photographed in a consistent way, ie. motionless, and from the top, the side and underneath, captured with the macro setting on our phones. You would have a quasi-scientific database for comparisons.

You could include pictures of the wings too. That might be useful