Amm / Native Black Bee Discussion

Hello,
For those interested in Amm / Native Black Bees. Tell us about your bees, queen rearing groups, successes and failures.
Please feel free to post your experiences, observations, or questions regarding the above.

 

[Wilco]

Hi
you mean different Apis mellifera types (subspecies) don't you, say 50% A m carnica and 50% A m mellifera?

That could prove to be very difficult, you would have to make sure the carnica which build up earlier (according to Ruttner) do not have more Drones in their hives, also there's always the question of where did the virgins fly to, ...someone may say that amm virgins performed Near Apiary Vicinity mating ... and other such things.

The idea had crossed my mind as well, even with the possible counter arguments the results of the experiment would add the findings of a third study, with this suggested Isolated Mating Study, I think being the most valuable.


BUT
would a more extreme version not be better.
IF we took, say 10 Amm virgins and released them on an island (isolated mating station) with NO Amm drones, say carnica drones only, and also released carnica virgins (just to prove that the island provided the necessary mating conditions, such as weather, etc.), we could provide strong evidence as to whether Amm virgins mate with non-Amm or not. I think that might actually be do-able, do you think this would be a good idea?

Yes, typo, sorry.

Or just factor that in to the hypothesised proportions of drones of AMM to those of other subspecies. Could be done with multiple subspecies flooding the area at once not just, two. A

Hence isolated mating site. The point of this is to ensure you have actual control of the drones that are available, removing the possibility that an unknown number of colonies you are unaware of could be messing with the drone population. Whether there is near vicinity mating or not is a question of the mechanism, the point here is to determine if there is selection, not how as that would be a question for later studies.

Not having AMM drones is a bit of a confounder as I think you'll just find the queens mate with what they can get if they are unable to exhibit preference. I'd tend towards what a previous poster said about the queens making do. The question we're interested in is whether AMM queens are selectively mating with AMM drones, so any test needs to have the possibility for them to choose an AMM type drone.

 

[0bee-1]

On a brighter note, talking earlier about our yellow line, these are from one we raised last year last year.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b8b649n817sq7g/farm bees.mp4?dl=0

what hive/nuc are they in please?

 

[Lislarybees]

You need to read the Papers that you are citing... I don't come from Ireland but it appears even I know your geography better than you!

If you get 1024 people to flip a coin ten times one of them will guess it correctly each time, it's called luck.

BUT as I can't convince you based on the science I have presented, then why don't you present your own science... IF what you are saying is correct and the bees in question in North Dublin.... are treatment free because of characteristics (genetics) of the bees (with maybe the help of an OMF) then simply take a frame with capped drone brood from a Hive WITH Varroa mites (I would imagine a nuc/hive would be moved to the away apiary that has varroa mites) and place this frame into the hive with these bees that do not need treatment, leave them untreated and in one year we can see who is right... it would be a very simple thing to do, which would add so much strong evidence in support of your argument (and the claim of the author's Paper ... from North Dublin) that it basically would be considered proof that these bees are treatment free because of something to do with the bees.... AT which point there would be a queue down the road for these queens - I would be at the front ... tentatively conceding that I was wrong, and hopefully acknowledge that I was 100% wrong the following year... and at which point you would have a new member of NIHBS and it's most evangelistic supporter!

I'll hold my breathe for the Drone Frame test to be done (by the way if you to Google it, I believe it's called the James Bond method)

What science have you presented? I have provided links to a study that shows treatment free bee keeping can be an effective way to manage varroa for some beekeepers. You say this is just luck - well there must be plenty of lucky bee keepers around - I hope they buy their lottery tickets.

 

[mbc]

Do you have research that I'm not aware about this? The research that I've read to date, and what we have been discussing, is only AMM virgins mating with only AMM drones, not virgins generally mating within their own subspecies, in fact the existence of the Buckfast bee proves that (probably) most of the other Apis mellifera mate freely with each other.

I seem to remember a slovakian paper where carnica and amm remained largely distinct despite the area the amm being kept was surrounded by amc, but you may have a point with it being the amm drones and virgins being more exclusive to each other than amc drones and virgins, don't properly recall.

I'm not sure what this sentence means in the context of the discussion, and the findings of the research, ie: what mechanisms?

Polyandry and drone dispersal.

yes, you're right...
....unless you agree with the thinking that I found eloquently and convincingly put forth by Beowolf Cooper; in that IF the Amm is the best suited bee to the British Isles then it's genetics are as well, and over time these genetics will come to the forefront. But yes, I think you are right once introgression occurred it would be difficult to reverse; it's just how does it occur, because the research is very strongly indicating that the Amm virgins are not mating with non-Amm drones... which I do not understand.

Your talking perhaps hundreds of generations of natural selection without outside pressures for such selection to express itself.

I have no idea, I was hoping someone here could make suggestions.... but one of the authors verbally explained what he observed in that from what I gathered even hives that were giving DNA results of about 88%+ Amm, their Drones were not mating with the Amm virgins! I am completely perplexed, and I am saying (like you) this cannot be right, ... but the research is quite clear.


Maybe... not "best possible outcomes" - I'm basing my present (they may change) opinions on likely mating outcomes on the conclusions of the research.

 

[Swarm]

what hive/nuc are they in please?

Maisemore nuc, two tier.

 

[Apiarist]

What science have you presented? I have provided links to a study that shows treatment free bee keeping can be an effective way to manage varroa for some beekeepers. You say this is just luck - well there must be plenty of lucky bee keepers around - I hope they buy their lottery tickets.

There are so many papers I couldn't list them all, a short time spent will find them but I don't think your opinion will be changed, no matter what I say or Post.
HOWEVER you CAN change my mind, and get the bees onto the front page of all major beekeeping newsletters throughout Europe (not to mention a huge demand for Irsh Amm Queens, last time I checked proven Varroa Resistant Bees fetched £150)... take a frame of capped drone brood from a hive with varroa and add it to one of these varrao resistant hives from North Dublin... I'll hold my breathe will I?

 

[Apiarist]

Not having AMM drones is a bit of a confounder as I think you'll just find the queens mate with what they can get if they are unable to exhibit preference. I'd tend towards what a previous poster said about the queens making do. The question we're interested in is whether AMM queens are selectively mating with AMM drones, so any test needs to have the possibility for them to choose an AMM type drone.

Ahh, now I'm seeing the importance of having a countable amount of Amm drones and non-Amm drones... assuming the results of this Isolated Mating experiment mimicked those of Polish 2013 and Irish 2017 studies (and the Danish observed results), then one could repeat the experiment the following year ONLY WITHOUT Amm drones... just to settle the question of whether the Amm queens would mate with Non-Amm drones if they were all that was available.

 

[Wilco]

On a brighter note, talking earlier about our yellow line, these are from one we raised last year.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5b8b649n817sq7g/farm bees.mp4?dl=0

They've done really well!

 

[rolande]

then one could repeat the experiment the following year ONLY WITHOUT Amm drones... just to settle the question of whether the Amm queens would mate with Non-Amm drones if they were all that was available.

What question? It's obvious that they mate with whichever drones catch them.

I'm sure there are lots of forum members who've purchased Amm queens from JG, introduced them into non Amm areas and then got their daughters mated. I have for sure.

 

[Beesnaturally]

There are so many papers I couldn't list them all, a short time spent will find them but I don't think your opinion will be changed, no matter what I say or Post.
HOWEVER you CAN change my mind, and get the bees onto the front page of all major beekeeping newsletters throughout Europe (not to mention a huge demand for Irsh Amm Queens, last time I checked proven Varroa Resistant Bees fetched £150)... take a frame of capped drone brood from a hive with varroa and add it to one of these varrao resistant hives from North Dublin... I'll hold my breathe will I?

Nicely ignores the point about coevolution I made a day ago.

 

[Beesnaturally]

What question? It's obvious that they mate with whichever drones catch them.

I'm sure there are lots of forum members who've purchased Amm queens from JG, introduced them into non Amm areas and then got their daughters mated. I have for sure.

It's known that queens rarely mate with drones from their own hive, so perhaps have an ability to be choosy (or perhaps drones tend to fly south while queens fly north.. I think this would have been spotted by now, so let's stick to the first...

It's also worth noting that whole point of competitive mating is to locate the best drones ('best' here defined as those most able to win a mate-the-queen competition). We have to imagine a scenario in which the queen is able to throw off all but the keenest in order to make sense of the evolution of that method. Whether that fits in any useful way into the discussion I don't known.

Theory aside, using brood nest drone comb is of course known to be a very effective way of boosting hits from desirable sources. Unlimited brood nests plus not balancing goes some way toward achieving the same thing - the stronger hives supply more drones, increasing the likelihood of desirable marriages.

 

[Swarm]

Apiarist isn't interested in Amm, I think we all realise that.

 

[Swarm]

What question? It's obvious that they mate with whichever drones catch them.

I'm sure there are lots of forum members who've purchased Amm queens from JG, introduced them into non Amm areas and then got their daughters mated. I have for sure.

Point well made. There may well be a tendency to mate like for like but they have to be there in the first place and how good your results are will depend on how many/widespread.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It's known that queens rarely mate with drones from their own hive, so perhaps have an ability to be choosy (or perhaps drones tend to fly south while queens fly north.. I think this would have been spotted by now, so let's stick to the first...

 

[Swarm]

They've done really well!

Thanks Wilco, they are in a double nuc and positively bouncing. I really want to get these set up with more space but the weather is terrible and not looking like improving for a week or more. Saturday says twelve degrees but sunny so I may get a chance but I have another six in a similar position.
I know the usual response when local adaption is raised but I see it every year, the fittest, strongest colonies are the ones headed by the farm queens.

 

[rolande]

Theory aside, using brood nest drone comb is of course known to be a very effective way of boosting hits from desirable sources. Unlimited brood nests plus not balancing goes some way toward achieving the same thing - the stronger hives supply more drones, increasing the likelihood of desirable marriages.

I'm interested in stats showing that unlimited drone production produces unlimited numbers of the fittest drones.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm interested in stats showing that unlimited drone production produces unlimited numbers of the fittest drones.

I think I said 'increase' not 'unlimited'! And I didn't mention 'fittest drones' in that contexts.

But I don't know where I can show you that unlimited brood nests tend to result in more absolute numbers of drones.

However, IF drones tend to be raised in proportion to workers, and IF a queen excluder (and perhaps old comb, hard honey, accumulated old pollen) were restricting laying, it would seem to me to follow logically that giving more room to lay would result in greater absolute numbers - of both.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Thanks, but it is too time consuming for me. If you could direct me to a particular part of relevance perhaps?

 

[rolande]

If the koeniger's decades of research, distilled into a nicely presented talk is too time consuming, there's no hope at all.

 

[rolande]

I think I said 'increase' not 'unlimited'! And I didn't mention 'fittest drones' in that contexts.

No, you might have meant that but you wrote:

Unlimited brood nests plus not balancing goes some way toward achieving the same thing - the stronger hives supply more drones, increasing the likelihood of desirable marriages.

Admittedly, I did assume that you'd be referring to fittest drones simply because they're the ones it makes sense to want on the wing.