AMM imports?

[Gilberdyke John]

No agenda.

1. It was not my idea.
2. It ain't going to happen.

If you look for a concrete underlining of this...the project would have taken an investment of close to £100k. After a fair bit of research it was apparent returns (as in profits) would be minimal...albeit not a loss as it would still be an asset.

However if I was investing that much, just getting more hives here and producing more heather honey is SO much more sensible. I can also do without the hassles of working in a market where there is so much high emotion swilling about. It is a dead concept.

So the Irish market...both north and south...is 'safe'. We cannot under Brexit legislation easily export to either as we are now a 'third country'.

Its not a problem at all to us...we cannot produce enough to meet demand even here, and if I added up the annual *profit* on Irish sales prior to post Brexit rules coming in I probably would be on £5.00 a week.

Sorry ITLD but you've misread/misunderstood my post. I've become tired of our Irish contributors constant carping on. (and on and on and on)

 

[Gilberdyke John]

LOL..possibly so......thats what I get for reading stuff when half asleep at the dead of night....then responding in the morning from the machine I am logged in on at the office..without re reading the posts. Sorry Gilberdyke!

You're forgiven Murray

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry ITLD but you've misread/misunderstood my post. I've become tired of our Irish contributors constant carping on. (and on and on and on)

Don't worry - if the last time is anything to go by, I bet you there's been a call for reinforcements, so you will have even more to listen to before long

 

[Erichalfbee]

Don't worry - if the last time is anything to go by, I bet you there's been a call for reinforcements, so you will have even more to listen to before long

You might be right

 

[Finman]

Playing with Black bee, it is merry happiness!
What ever happens, it is pure native miracle from day to day. Flying in drizzle, it makes rainy days sunny. All other sub species get black babies in straw baskets. Genes from Ice Age, even if they came from Italy.

 

[Apiarist]

Hi Lislarybees
I do not understand why you are saying the below statements???

No one says the Native Irish Honey bee is not the European Dark Honey bee.

Correct, EVERYONE that I know and have read is saying they are the same... I do not understand why you have said something everyone is also saying, and that no one that I am aware of would disagree with?

They are one and the same thing as stated in the bill....They are also Amm though.

BECAUSE the "Native Irish Honey Bee" (to quote the Bill) is defined as the same as the AMM, then again Yes... again I do not understand why you are saying something which anyone reading the Bill will agree with you on? Also I refer you to my previous comment.

We just happen to have a population that developed in isolation for a very long time with some much more recent influence from French and Dutch bees

Ok, now here your argument does encounter a problem. You cannot say "They are one and the same" and then in the next sentence say "We just happen to have a population that developed in isolation" ...I think you are meaning they have some form of distinctness (lets not go down that road, on whether they do or not, so we can keep this discussion focused), they either are "the same" or they are not, they are certainly the same sub-specie, (NO ONE is arguing against that) - but are they different Strains "developed in isolation"?
IF they are "the same" then, what makes them so special that they need protected?
IF they are distinct (due to their over 1000 years of "isolation"), then they are not "the same", and this assertion could be used to support the argument for a bee importation ban (the wording of the Bill takes the former position and in doing so undermines itself, and decreases it's likelihood of success).

I struggle to understand how that undermines the argument for conservation.

It doesn't, but the science makes the argument for conservation a difficult one:
1. The research shows Ireland has a VERY high percentage of AMM in it's bees.
2. The research (including now from Ireland) shows that AMM virgins are not mating with Non-AMM drones.
The first shows they are not under threat, the second shows they are not threatened.

I'll just repeat what I said earlier;
"IF this Bill is passed into Law, it means the Irish Government will define the bees that you see in rural France as the “native Irish honey bee”.
Just let that sink in for a while ... "
I just can't wait to Holiday in France again and meet a beekeeper (the Gite owner I visit keeps bees) and tell them, 'ah you have Irish bees' and pull out my phone and show them the wording of this Bill... I know .... simple things amuse the simple minded!

Hopefully everyone will see sense in the wording of this Bill and the ambiguous/contradictory wording will be corrected.

 

[Finman]

In Finland we have beekeepers in remote places, who do not have varroa in their hives. But places are not isolated. You may go with car to every place.

Mere "isolated" place does not make bees' DNA special . If it makes, it needs thousands of years.

As far I know, Ireland is not isolated place. Queens have bee imported to that " isolated isle" every year. Aiplanes and ferries come and go every day. Human slavery business has been done 1000 years on the isle.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Don't worry - if the last time is anything to go by, I bet you there's been a call for reinforcements, so you will have even more to listen to before long

maybe there's a good chance the topic will go into the cupboard under the stairs?

 

[rolande]

maybe there's a good chance the topic will go into the cupboard under the stairs?

Hopefully not as there are some interesting bee related posts in this thread.

 

[user 819]

It's nearly winter put this under the stairs and another subject or related thread will arise to bicker over. Personally I can't be bothered and mainly gloss over the threads.

 

[Swarm]

Hopefully not as there are some interesting bee related posts in this thread.

Pity you have to wade through so much other stuff to find it.
There have been some wonderful reintroduction programs, look at the success story with the Red Kite. I remember when there were just twenty three birds in mid Wales, now I can regularly see more than that on a round trip to relatives, even had one fly over my house. A younger me would never have believed that would ever be possible.

If there is a bill being discussed, then it will either be passed or not so chucking insults around is pretty pointless.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There have been some wonderful reintroduction programs, look at the success story with the Red Kite.

Don't remember anyone demanding the eradication of buzzards and Goshawks at that time though.

 

[pargyle]

Isn't it often the case that a small minority at the extremes make so much noise that the moderate majority in the middle are ignored. Governments are renowned for creating laws to protect a minority but which leave the vast majority at a disadvantage.....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Isn't it often the case that a small minority at the extremes make so much noise that the moderate majority in the middle are ignored. Governments are renowned for creating laws to protect a minority but which leave the vast majority at a disadvantage.....

Well there’s been a little chatter but wouldn’t threads be boring if they were simply lists.
Conservation is wonderful but we don’t all have to do it.
I’m sure we all play our parts one way or another

 

[Mabee]

I actually find this discussion really interesting, but then I've only been on here a year! What I don't get is arguing for one type of bee over another, surely the best bees are ones that are healthy, don't sting members of the public for no reason, make lovely honey and create more nice bees year on year. I don't see why they have to be a certain colour, if they work in your area, then they are surely the right bees!

I did start with quite dark local bees and my limited experience with them is that they stung one or two people for no reason & they had frames upon frames of chalkbrood. I changed the queens and they then also made some queens, 3 hives are great, one of them is amazing (I will be creating queens from her this year) and one other, the fourth (the more local type will be requeened in Spring as they are too defensive for my liking), the bees I now have are healthy, easy to handle and get on with the day job of making more bees and frames of lovely honey.

Speaking to a local lady who let someone keep bees in her garden, she said they were always getting stung, and another place where there were local bees kept, they were stinging people regularly, I don't think that's a good way to encourage the public to support beekeeping! I also don't want to keep those bees! So, I really don't get (yet, at least) why there are such strong arguments for keeping only one type/breed of bee unless it is a super bee!

 

[pargyle]

Well there’s been a little chatter but wouldn’t threads be boring if they were simply lists.
Conservation is wonderful but we don’t all have to do it.
I’m sure we all play our parts one way or another

I agree ....

 

[Mint Bee]

I actually find this discussion really interesting, but then I've only been on here a year! What I don't get is arguing for one type of bee over another, surely the best bees are ones that are healthy, don't sting members of the public for no reason, make lovely honey and create more nice bees year on year. I don't see why they have to be a certain colour, if they work in your area, then they are surely the right bees!

I did start with quite dark local bees and my limited experience with them is that they stung one or two people for no reason & they had frames upon frames of chalkbrood. I changed the queens and they then also made some queens, 3 hives are great, one of them is amazing (I will be creating queens from her this year) and one other, the fourth (the more local type will be requeened in Spring as they are too defensive for my liking), the bees I now have are healthy, easy to handle and get on with the day job of making more bees and frames of lovely honey.

Speaking to a local lady who let someone keep bees in her garden, she said they were always getting stung, and another place where there were local bees kept, they were stinging people regularly, I don't think that's a good way to encourage the public to support beekeeping! I also don't want to keep those bees! So, I really don't get (yet, at least) why there are such strong arguments for keeping only one type/breed of bee unless it is a super bee!

you raise some very logical points. Don't worry you will soon get used to that being bypassed by some on the forum and with a far number of beekeepers in general

I would suggest that if people are getting stung when they are near to the hives, than that says more about the competency of the beekeeper that it does about the colour or species of bee

 

[Norton]

Some posts on this thread need to be clarified:
Posts#5 and 12: There are no exports of AMM from Cyprus.

Post#10: Cypriot queen bees are presented as being expensive; the fact is they are around the price of imported queens from Italy and certainly much cheaper than the Scottish produced, available much earlier as well.

 

[Finman]

About bee colonies inside each races.
Most I have had Italian bees. There are a huge variation inside yellow color bees. When they mate with each others, you have no idea, what has happened.

When buying Carniolan bees from Central Europe, there is no quarantee, what you get. It is lotto.

I have not worked with black bees during last 30 years, but I think that quality variation is from edge to edge. Because quite few hobby beekeepers select their mother queens. Swarming is easy way to get new queens.

Killer bee hive among Italian apiary is handled so, that you squeeze the angry queen between fingers.

My experience is, that if you buy a good queen, what ever it is, its genes will be soon vanished into the surrounding genepool.

When I buy from Italy 5 queens, it is normal that all those queens will be changed, and next winter the colonies have only 50% out of original genes

The same will happen to Finnish queens. If weathers have been miserable when mating, queens are poorly mated. So they requeen part or the queens. They again loose the original features of the queen.

When two different races mate, at least you see that something has happened. And playing with Buckfast bees I wondered every time, how fast their genes disappeared from apiary to the bottomless surrounding genepool.

It is same with native black bee, origin near odd place, you will never know, how are their superior genes after 3 years.

 

[Into the lions den]

Some posts on this thread need to be clarified:
Posts#5 and 12: There are no exports of AMM from Cyprus.

Post#10: Cypriot queen bees are presented as being expensive; the fact is they are around the price of imported queens from Italy and certainly much cheaper than the Scottish produced, available much earlier as well.

Only if you compare the price from resellers.

A Buckfast queen direct from an Italian breeder is well cheaper than Cypriot xxxxx. Not sure how the Italians will take it if I give their basic prices out but it is a lot cheaper than yours...but then you are not really comparing like with like. Its not a point to disagree about...just a simple fact, and you can sell out anyway so being cheaper than you are makes no business sense. Will PM you on that.

Scottish raised queens were not part of the discussion...but at £36.00 each (2021 price) they are relatively good value *for what they are*. Plus you have to factor in Jolanta's unit only has two peak months in the year, about 4 overall, so the number of queens you can tun out is also restricted by time as well as weather. Like you we do not need to sell any cheaper. She could have sold at least 50% more than she could produce. Thats without any effort to promote them.

Prices are all relative.


Sorry..came back to edit it as I had carelessly included name without it being clear it was ok to do so.