AMM imports?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The Return of The Hound of Baskervilles

One of my mediaeval ancestors was that Baskerville - he had exceptional hunting hounds apparently

 

[Finman]

One of my mediaeval ancestors was that Baskerville - he had exceptional hunting hounds apparently

That Baskerville is only 120 years old.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That Baskerville is only 120 years old.

he was his ancestor and apparently was how the legend started

 

[NiallD]

Waited overnight to consider my response to this as it could be seen as deliberately provocative. One death threat if I ever set foot on the island of Ireland with bees was enough, never mind the diatribe from both sides and constant reposting the *very* incomplete tabloid coverage of our 2009 OTC case. (I make no apology for saving the bees.) Contrasted completely with the civilised and polite exchanges I had off stage with Aoife Macgiollacoda on the subject.

OK..lets go. The initiative proposed was at the behest of a group of Irish beekeepers of varying scales but slanted to the professional end. Most of them had, at some stage, had the Jolanta line queens we raise here, and were very much wanting regular supplies. With Brexit making legal movements difficult at best (unless you just post them devoid of paperwork....lots of that happening) they wondered if it was a possibility we would consider establishing an Irish unit. It was NOT my idea. I agreed to investigate so posted on several fora to canvass opinion. Did NOT go to the Irish forum which was perhaps an error at the time but with hindsight was probably best as opinions seem to become so enflamed so quickly.

The points mostly coming to me were that Irish queen prices are at a level that precludes viable commercial use and that, despite the prices being so high, availability is always difficult and sometimes impossible. The biggest producer only does a few hundred and single operations could use up that number on their own.

Of the 14 commercials and semi commercials that replied 12 wanted non Amm stock. Of that 12 a few import directly from southern Europe already and would never bee clients for later availability and higher priced (though not as high as current rates...we wanted the larger clients mainly) Irish raised stock we would provide. 6 offered to provide the locations for the project. All but one of the commercials said they kept their heads down over there as they can come under attack. Irish beekeepers applied for jobs in the mooted unit.. Another couple offered to come and train here to then run the Irish unit for us.

Based on the fairly scanty statistics in the mails I got I concluded that, of those interested in buying queens from the unit only about 25% of the demand was for Amm. A similar number wanted Buckfasts (mainly those already importing). Most just wanted good quiet healthy bees that got a crop irrespective of racial origin. This is what the Jolanta project is actually all about...very nice content bees that give a minimum of management issues yet grow strong and productive. They do very nicely in Ireland already.

It is plain than there is a gap in the market for real commercial queen rearing but is it enough to carry a full time business? Why has it not happened already?

The Amm market is primarily into the ones and twos trade...its the same here. The bigger clients on whom the success of a venture would depend are mainly in the 'just want good bees' class, unless they already import Buckfast.

So having gone through all the responses it could be seen that the Amm market was too small and mainly comprised the ones and twos market where they are often the most time consuming customers. The commercial market was a possible avenue but they did not generally want Amm, and the key customers were already importing themselves at prices an Irish based unit could not compete with. The remainder MIGHT constitute a market for a single person working on it doing a relatively modest 1500 queens a year. Quite easy to achieve, but if you take commercially viable pricing on 1500 minus all the costs and the wages, it works out pretty marginal. Add in the difficulties of being in what seems like a beekeeping war zone it was a pretty easy decision to make.....a non starter.

We would have used it just as an extension of the programme we have here which breeds bees very suited to Ireland and were the basis for people asking in the first place. Our selection criteria are severe...having over 4000 to choose from and a willingness to incorporate fresh lines from inside and outside our unit gives us a lot of genetic diversity and we really believe in that as it is what puts resilience into the stock. This does not sit easily with the narrower aims of the Amm movement. Our criteria are about the traditional reasons for keeping bees..a symbiotic arrangement where our rewards come from the various harvests (honey, wax, pollination etc) whereas in recent years a more conservation minded movement has grown up essentially from the amateur ranks, but also with some academics on board, in which purity in breeding has relegated the traditionally desirable attributes to a secondary role. Our criteria stand accused of being anti Amm as we like large gentle vigorous colonies with high brood fertility and an absence of disease. An example being that Jolanta allows a maximum of three cells of chalk brood in her breeder colonies..any more and they get evicted back to the main unit. Apparently this is us discriminating against Amm in which chalk is often an issue..

Late edit...you note I did not mention productivity. That's because that is the first hurdle any stock has to cross....the selection takes place ONLY among the proven producers.

Thank you for your thoughtful response........This seems ,to me ,to be a reasonably accurate observation of some of the issues involved .BTW, I would have quite a bit of experience of the business of producing honey in quantity.

 

[Apiarist]

(I make no apology for saving the bees.)
...
Apparently this is us discriminating against Amm in which chalk is often an issue..

Thanks for that full reply,
-
you should make no apology, the apology should come from elsewhere..
...
Yes, I've observed in some hives Chalkbrood is a problem, I know beeks that have had it virtually over an entire frame!
But I have also read that bees with a high Hygienic Trait (identified through the Pin Test) are very resistant to Chalkbrood and ... the other brood diseases... maybe if you do Pin Tests you might find a correlation between low Chalkbrood and high clean out rate after a Pin Test, and vice versa.
-
Thanks again.
At least I know what to aim for, 1500 queens

 

[Finman]

Thanks for that full reply,
-
you should make no apology, the apology should come from elsewhere..
...
Yes, I've observed in some hives Chalkbrood is a problem, I know beeks that have had it virtually over an entire frame!
But I have also read that bees with a high Hygienic Trait (identified through the Pin Test) are very resistant to Chalkbrood and ... the other brood diseases... maybe if you do Pin Tests you might find a correlation between low Chalkbrood and high clean out rate after a Pin Test, and vice versa.
-
Thanks again.
At least I know what to aim for, 1500 queens

Chalk brood immunity is very common among bees.

It is not Hygienic trait which protect against chalkbrood it is misunderstanding, that the larva should first become sick, and then the hygienic bee carry the dead larva out . So do every hive. Then arrives the warm summer and the disease disappers.

There are immunity against against European foulbrood too. You must only change ypur queens to tesistant genepool and goodbuy to the EFB.

But keepers do not learn this thing. You may tell that hundred times and they prefer their native genepools

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes, I've observed in some hives Chalkbrood is a problem, I know beeks that have had it virtually over an entire frame!
But I have also read that bees with a high Hygienic Trait (identified through the Pin Test) are very resistant to Chalkbrood and ... the other brood diseases... maybe if you do Pin Tests you might find a correlation between low Chalkbrood and high clean out rate after a Pin Test, and vice versa.

Jolanta does indeed do pin tests...but only on colonies already selected for use in the queen unit.

By her fussyness about bees that keep a tidy hive it seems she has been incidentally selecting for this. Some of her stock......even before the pin tesat was being used by her,.... tested very high for hygienic traits in a programme in Europe.

Resistance to chalk does not seem to especially correlate with that..BUT...maybe no surprise, as a chalky colony does not get as far as going to the queen unit, so none with moderate to heavy chalk ever get tested.

 

[Into the lions den]

There are immunity against against European foulbrood too. You must only change ypur queens to tesistant genepool and goodbuy to the EFB.

I am a bit sorry a lot of people get all worked up about how you say things then forget to LISTEN to some of the wisdom that comes from you.

In that line you have the nub of the issue.

In the areas where our friends in Italy operate they have practically eliminated EFB through proper scientific breeding, requeening vulnerable stock, and keeping the levels of selection and breeding high.

Unfortunately much of this is in bees that are not especially suited to our climate in Scotland....or indeed Irel;and or along the seaboard of NW Europe with a maitime climate, so we have a long term job on our hands to get this property into our own stock, so Jolanta is off to a distant land soon to be trained by a world expert. Although you are afar north in Europe, Finland still has a relatively continental climte and so this Italian based Buckfast stock is pretty well suited to YOUR climate. Some of the queens we have been testing are of Finnish origin via northern Italy.

However, even now, we have got well on top of chalk to the point we rarely see the heavy chalkbrood so common in local black bees, and EFB frequency is in decline (although that is subject to attack on multiple fronts). The severity of EFB is also in decline, finding 'stinkers' as was the case 12 yrs ago is now pretty well a non occurrence, most cases are very subtle. As hygiene increases and chalk susceptibility declines we can now use ';spotty brood' as a VERY strong indicator that EFB may be present and do a test.

We xare getting there....but suspect the proper job will take another 10 to 15 years...meantime we suffer constant genetic influx from local stock, which for reasons of there own, is revered by people whose mind is more about conservation of local survivors than high performers.

I have said this many times before.......and of you are in a clean area it is not a worry and your experience does not relate to this...but we are a pretty significant sample size and have been through hell on the EFB front since 2009. You can almost start to predict the groups of colonies most at risk. Our statistics over the years have shown that the more Amm the bees are the greater their susceptibility to EFB and chalk. In fact for EFB we are pretty sure it is between 10 and 40 times more likely in Amm, and tending to Amm, colonies.

Our thoughts on that are more tempered in the last couple fo years by the fact semi hygienic bees are good cleaners and you might not see it. Subclinical levels paint a far less clear picture. What IS clear is that we face a permanent situation of needing to refresh the resi8stant/tolerant traits as incoming dro9nes into field matings especially will constantly dilute the effects of the work at the breeding unit. I suspect we may still be having these arguments and problems in 50 years.

Meanwhile we have a bee establishment that seems to believe all the reports on this from other countries are false and an NBU whose official line is you cannot resolve EFB through breeding. We are paddling upstream against the current.

 

[Finman]

Thank you IntoLion for your profound answer.

I have had Finnish origin Italian queens, mated in Italy. In open mating they will be what ever. But you surely know better the queen business.

 

[Into the lions den]

Thank you IntoLion for your profound answer.

I have had Finnish origin Italian queens, mated in Italy. In open mating they will be what ever. But you surely know better the queen business.

Depends who you buy them from. Some just mate to whatever is around and don't really drone flood. Others only mate them in areas where they strongly flood and control (as best as they can) what is in the drone pool.

Dont ask you to name names in open forum...if you want to take this exchange onto PM it might be better.

 

[Lislarybees]

AMM lives in Europe that is sure. I saw a genetic research from Russia. It was said that in Russia 64% out if genes are from Black bees and other genes are other races. Note that Russia is the largest country on globe. Problem in Russia is, that all bees are hybrids. Hard to find pure bee races.

Almost native bee race is Caucasian. When Soviet Union splitted, perhaps Caucasian is not any more Russian native.

American Russian bee was introduced from Vladivostok region. It stands varroa. It was researched that Amerikan Russian bee has Caucasian DNA. But then it was researched, that that corner of Siberia has all kinds of race hybrids. It depends how beekeepers migrate and move their hives.

Hi Finman - what would your interpretation of these findings be the main discussion of genetics is from the 40 minute mark on.

 

[Lislarybees]

NO my friend you are WRONG
I couldn't believe it myself when I read it, surely this can't be right I thought, so here's a quote from the proposed Legislation in Ireland going through the Irish Senate:

" PROTECTION OF THE NATIVE IRISH HONEY BEE BILL 2021...
Definitions
1. In this Act— ...
“native Irish honey bee” means the European Dark Honey Bee classified as Apis
mellifera mellifera and includes such bees at any stage in their life. "

there you go
IF this Bill is passed into Law, it means the Irish Government will define the bees that you see in rural France as the “native Irish honey bee”.

Just let that sink in for a while ... I am still trying to get my head around that one!

You should watch the linked video in the reply I made to Finman. No one says the Native Irish Honey bee is not the European Dark Honey bee. They are one and the same thing as stated in the bill. We just happen to have a population that developed in isolation for a very long time with some much more recent influence from French and Dutch bees. They are also Amm though. I struggle to understand how that undermines the argument for conservation.

 

[Lislarybees]

Waited overnight to consider my response to this as it could be seen as deliberately provocative. One death threat if I ever set foot on the island of Ireland with bees was enough, never mind the diatribe from both sides and constant reposting the *very* incomplete tabloid coverage of our 2009 OTC case. (I make no apology for saving the bees.) Contrasted completely with the civilised and polite exchanges I had off stage with Aoife Macgiollacoda on the subject.

OK..lets go. The initiative proposed was at the behest of a group of Irish beekeepers of varying scales but slanted to the professional end. Most of them had, at some stage, had the Jolanta line queens we raise here, and were very much wanting regular supplies. With Brexit making legal movements difficult at best (unless you just post them devoid of paperwork....lots of that happening) they wondered if it was a possibility we would consider establishing an Irish unit. It was NOT my idea. I agreed to investigate so posted on several fora to canvass opinion. Did NOT go to the Irish forum which was perhaps an error at the time but with hindsight was probably best as opinions seem to become so enflamed so quickly.

The points mostly coming to me were that Irish queen prices are at a level that precludes viable commercial use and that, despite the prices being so high, availability is always difficult and sometimes impossible. The biggest producer only does a few hundred and single operations could use up that number on their own.

Of the 14 commercials and semi commercials that replied 12 wanted non Amm stock. Of that 12 a few import directly from southern Europe already and would never bee clients for later availability and higher priced (though not as high as current rates...we wanted the larger clients mainly) Irish raised stock we would provide. 6 offered to provide the locations for the project. All but one of the commercials said they kept their heads down over there as they can come under attack. Irish beekeepers applied for jobs in the mooted unit.. Another couple offered to come and train here to then run the Irish unit for us.

Based on the fairly scanty statistics in the mails I got I concluded that, of those interested in buying queens from the unit only about 25% of the demand was for Amm. A similar number wanted Buckfasts (mainly those already importing). Most just wanted good quiet healthy bees that got a crop irrespective of racial origin. This is what the Jolanta project is actually all about...very nice content bees that give a minimum of management issues yet grow strong and productive. They do very nicely in Ireland already.

It is plain than there is a gap in the market for real commercial queen rearing but is it enough to carry a full time business? Why has it not happened already?

The Amm market is primarily into the ones and twos trade...its the same here. The bigger clients on whom the success of a venture would depend are mainly in the 'just want good bees' class, unless they already import Buckfast.

So having gone through all the responses it could be seen that the Amm market was too small and mainly comprised the ones and twos market where they are often the most time consuming customers. The commercial market was a possible avenue but they did not generally want Amm, and the key customers were already importing themselves at prices an Irish based unit could not compete with. The remainder MIGHT constitute a market for a single person working on it doing a relatively modest 1500 queens a year. Quite easy to achieve, but if you take commercially viable pricing on 1500 minus all the costs and the wages, it works out pretty marginal. Add in the difficulties of being in what seems like a beekeeping war zone it was a pretty easy decision to make.....a non starter.

We would have used it just as an extension of the programme we have here which breeds bees very suited to Ireland and were the basis for people asking in the first place. Our selection criteria are severe...having over 4000 to choose from and a willingness to incorporate fresh lines from inside and outside our unit gives us a lot of genetic diversity and we really believe in that as it is what puts resilience into the stock. This does not sit easily with the narrower aims of the Amm movement. Our criteria are about the traditional reasons for keeping bees..a symbiotic arrangement where our rewards come from the various harvests (honey, wax, pollination etc) whereas in recent years a more conservation minded movement has grown up essentially from the amateur ranks, but also with some academics on board, in which purity in breeding has relegated the traditionally desirable attributes to a secondary role. Our criteria stand accused of being anti Amm as we like large gentle vigorous colonies with high brood fertility and an absence of disease. An example being that Jolanta allows a maximum of three cells of chalk brood in her breeder colonies..any more and they get evicted back to the main unit. Apparently this is us discriminating against Amm in which chalk is often an issue..

Late edit...you note I did not mention productivity. That's because that is the first hurdle any stock has to cross....the selection takes place ONLY among the proven producers.

Hi ITLD - thank you for your considered response. It is a shame - I am sure your experience would be very helpful in the conservation and improvement of kept Amm here in Ireland.
My sense would be that for small scale bee keepers there is the possibility of the joint reward of both conserving their native honey bee and plenty of honey for their own needs. There are also plenty of commercial bee keepers in Ireland that are achieving the same thing. Does the scale at which you keep and sell your hybridised lines not make it very difficult for either an amateur or commercial bee keeper to ever try and include a conservation element in their breeding in the UK? Do you think conservation has no place in bee keeping? I remember listening to an interview you gave where you said you thought in general where you had your bees improved the back ground genetics. Does it not just make the back ground genetics more muddled and even more difficult for Amm breeders? I do get that the UK is heavily hybridised already

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Ive

Hi ITLD - thank you for your considered response. It is a shame - I am sure your experience would be very helpful in the conservation and improvement of kept Amm here in Ireland.
My sense would be that for small scale bee keepers there is the possibility of the joint reward of both conserving their native honey bee and plenty of honey for their own needs. There are also plenty of commercial bee keepers in Ireland that are achieving the same thing. Does the scale at which you keep and sell your hybridised lines not make it very difficult for either an amateur or commercial bee keeper to ever try and include a conservation element in their breeding in the UK? Do you think conservation has no place in bee keeping? I remember listening to an interview you gave where you said you thought in general where you had your bees improved the back ground genetics. Does it not just make the back ground genetics more muddled and even more difficult for Amm breeders? I do get that the UK is heavily hybridised already

I've followed most of the gist of this thread but reading ITLDs response the bit that stood out for me was

"So having gone through all the responses it could be seen that the Amm market was too small and mainly comprised the ones and twos market where they are often the most time consuming customers. The commercial market was a possible avenue but they did not generally want Amm, and the key customers were already importing themselves at prices an Irish based unit could not compete with."

I'm getting the impression you are determined to keep on pushing your own agenda regardless of the realities of the situation, especially for Irish commercial honey producers. Quite frankly and to borrow a Shakespearean phrase methinks the lady doth protest too much.

 

[Into the lions den]

I'm getting the impression you are determined to keep on pushing your own agenda regardless of the realities of the situation, especially for Irish commercial honey producers. Quite frankly and to borrow a Shakespearean phrase methinks the lady doth protest too much.

No agenda.

1. It was not my idea.
2. It ain't going to happen.

If you look for a concrete underlining of this...the project would have taken an investment of close to £100k. After a fair bit of research it was apparent returns (as in profits) would be minimal...albeit not a loss as it would still be an asset.

However if I was investing that much, just getting more hives here and producing more heather honey is SO much more sensible. I can also do without the hassles of working in a market where there is so much high emotion swilling about. It is a dead concept.

So the Irish market...both north and south...is 'safe'. We cannot under Brexit legislation easily export to either as we are now a 'third country'.

Its not a problem at all to us...we cannot produce enough to meet demand even here, and if I added up the annual *profit* on Irish sales prior to post Brexit rules coming in I probably would be on £5.00 a week.

 

[Repwoc]

No agenda.

I think the agenda alluded to by @Gilberdyke John wasn't yours.

 

[Finman]

Hi Finman - what would your interpretation of these findings be

Sorry but I am immune to science.
.

 

[Into the lions den]

I think the agenda alluded to by @Gilberdyke John wasn't yours.

LOL..possibly so......thats what I get for reading stuff when half asleep at the dead of night....then responding in the morning from the machine I am logged in on at the office..without re reading the posts. Sorry Gilberdyke!

 

[Finman]

Many kind of agendas. In Finkand Green Party wants to conserve 30% out of industrial forests.

 

[rolande]

Does the scale at which you keep and sell your hybridised lines not make it very difficult for either an amateur or commercial bee keeper to ever try and include a conservation element in their breeding in the UK?

From what I remember, the price difference between ITLD's queens and the Amm which are available is actually quite marginal, the small extra cost of a Jon Getty queen would/should be no barrier in the amateur market if that's what you want.