AMM imports?

[Apiarist]

I was reading another Thread which has gone way
and a question came into my mind....

Are there any Apis mellifera mellifera imports occurring into the British Isles?

I understand that this may seem like a strange question, but from my understanding there is a good demand for 'Black' bees (and their queens) early in the year, and I have this annoying vague memory of something being mentioned on this forum about Amm imports from somewhere, ... I think someone joked about them coming from southern France but then maybe said they meant Southern Ireland, if the latter I would imagine they may be under the radar?

There are commercially minded (contacted) beeks on here that may know the answer to this question, I'm guessing the answer will be a very clear NO.

 

[Murox]

from Beckysbeez......."About Apis Mellifera Mellifera - Sold out for 2021
The Mellifera Mellifera are often referred to as the European dark bee, ........................They have excellent flight strength even in cold weather with a strong drive to bring in pollen. It is said that the workers and queens have a longer life than other races...................

These F1 Queens originate in Greece. All our queens are naturally open mated. We do not sell artificially inseminated queens (AI)."

 

[Apiarist]

These F1 Queens originate in Greece. All our queens are naturally open mated."

Technically would this mean (assuming the virgins used are 100% Amm) that the genetic make up of the workers in the colony produced by this Queen would be 50% Amm and 50% A m cecropia or macedonica... but if the tip of the queens wing was clipped and DNA tested (which can now be done) she would come back with a result of 100% Amm.

 

[PeaBee]

Technically would this mean (assuming the virgins used are 100% Amm) that the genetic make up of the workers in the colony produced by this Queen would be 50% Amm and 50% A m cecropia or macedonica... but if the tip of the queens wing was clipped and DNA tested (which can now be done) she would come back with a result of 100% Amm.

Unless the mating apiaries are in some way isolated I guess. Don't know enough about Greece or Greek beekeeping to know if that is even feasible.

 

[madasafish]

You could buy AMM queens from Cyprus.
And of course from Northern Ireland.(Johnathan Getty).

Don't know any more.

 

[mbc]

I know of one queen rearer who bought in some very pure Norwegian breeder queens to try, he wasn't all that impressed though.

 

[Into the lions den]

There are commercially minded (contacted) beeks on here that may know the answer to this question, I'm guessing the answer will be a very clear NO.

Its actually a very clear yes.

France has more AMM colonies than all of the British Isles combined....by orders of magnitude.. there are dozens of smaller scale breeders over there who offer 'noires' among the lines they sell.

There is history in this too that may well mean some of the special pockets of black bees up here are actually descendants of French blacks.

Large numbers of packages from France came into Scotland annually through Steel and Brodie. One of the drop off points was Maud station.
Mobus found black bees in the area some years later and I remember Maud bees going to quite a few people local to here.
They were too low vigour for those who got them and very prone to chalk brood..

However..this is going back 40 years..genetics on the mainland at least will be considerably modified by now.

 

[Finman]

In Finland too one breeder started to wake up Finnish black bees. Because Finnish genepool is very narrow, bees have imported from Norway and From Sweden.

When I look over the other side of the Sea, there are Russia, Estonia, Poland Germany and Denmark. No one use any more Black bees, even if area is Black bees' natural environment. Carniolan is popular. Buckfast queens have been imported from Poland too.

Here in North importing is not easy. Matings do not go in shedule in these climates.

 

[Apiarist]

Its actually a very clear yes.

France has more AMM colonies than all of the British Isles combined....by orders of magnitude.. there are dozens of smaller scale breeders over there who offer 'noires' among the lines they sell.

Thanks for that info. completely unaware of it.... so in theory if the need arose black bees could be imported from southern France...

You could buy AMM queens from Cyprus.
And of course from Northern Ireland.(Johnathan Getty).

Don't know any more.

Yes, but what I was thinking of was along these lines:

I've just discovered that there is a Bill starting to go through the legal hoops in the Republic of Ireland which would ban the importation of NON-Amm's, BUT meaning that you could import AMM nucs or packages from Southern France or AMM Queens from Greece or Cyprus (with Greek and Cypriot drone inside them!).

I rear my own queens, I actually enjoy that part more than the honey stuff, but I've been told many people just buy in a new queen each year. This year I've known quite a few beeks that were looking for Queens after theirs had died, around March.
At first when I read about the attempt to 'ban imports' into Ireland I thought it was all Honey Bees, but now I've realized it's non-AMM.

Just trying to work out what the potential consequences could be if this goes ahead: Those beeks I knew would still be able to buy in early Queens, so this Bill won't affect their ability to early-re-queen, just restrict them to what type of bee. Don't fancy all the paperwork that the beeks down south will have to keep for their bees though.

 

[Into the lions den]

French black bees are not all that early in their availability. Will not suffice for the truly early market. Cypriot are expensive and Greek are crossed on A m.cecropia which is a pretty modest bee in the north and west of UK and Ireland. Needing to get black bees early exposes you to the 'back door' possibility of early provenances such as Portugal, Spain, and Sicily being used... iberica and sicula are largely indistinguishable visually...iberica is even blacker and more uniform than the Irish bees I have seen..but you don't want either of those.

Also there might be some pretty significant opposition. On the thread when I asked about an inquiry from Ireland about setting up a breeding branch in Ireland, of the 14 rersponses I got from commercial and semi commercial beekeepers only two said they used AMM and pretty well all dismissed the 'black bee or nothing' movement as essentially amateur based and not above claiming territorial exclusivity and reserve status, albeit by repute rather than legislation, when in fact they...non AMM keepers....had over half the bees in the areas. It was very interesting once you stripped out all the hyperbole and threat that flew around..

Decided not to endorse or develop an Irish project as it was of dubious viability anyway and there is such a schism over there that It was foolish to wade into the market until there is a settled opinion. There probably never will be.

Meanwhile imports into Northern Ireland will increase...without a matching upturn in beekeeping activity there.

 

[Wilco]

Thanks for that info. completely unaware of it.... so in theory if the need arose black bees could be imported from southern France...



Yes, but what I was thinking of was along these lines:

I've just discovered that there is a Bill starting to go through the legal hoops in the Republic of Ireland which would ban the importation of NON-Amm's, BUT meaning that you could import AMM nucs or packages from Southern France or AMM Queens from Greece or Cyprus (with Greek and Cypriot drone inside them!).

I rear my own queens, I actually enjoy that part more than the honey stuff, but I've been told many people just buy in a new queen each year. This year I've known quite a few beeks that were looking for Queens after theirs had died, around March.
At first when I read about the attempt to 'ban imports' into Ireland I thought it was all Honey Bees, but now I've realized it's non-AMM.

Just trying to work out what the potential consequences could be if this goes ahead: Those beeks I knew would still be able to buy in early Queens, so this Bill won't affect their ability to early-re-queen, just restrict them to what type of bee. Don't fancy all the paperwork that the beeks down south will have to keep for their bees though.

Rather bemusing because even if they are only importing AMM-type, it's still bringing in 'non-native' bees that, by their own arguments, are locally adapted to somewhere else... And that's before getting in a bother about whether they're open mated. Laughable really, either ban all imports or don't bother.

 

[Apiarist]

yes I understand what you are saying;

it's just I was so taken aback whenever I read the Bill going through the Senate to see that it was defining "Native Irish Honey Bees" as merely Apis mellifera mellifera, which means the legislation will STILL allow imports of Honey Bees ... from potentially as far afield as the Middle East (Cyprus) and certainly southern France!

I listened to a Webinar a while back in which a very senior academic 'come' beekeeper within the Native Bee movement over here, conceded that IF there was a bee import ban, then the importations would just go unreported (like the one's across the Irish border), and most people can't tell at a glance from a distance the difference between a carnica and a mellifera.

 

[Apiarist]

Rather bemusing because even if they are only importing AMM-type, it's still bringing in 'non-native' bees that, by their own arguments, are locally adapted to somewhere else... And that's before getting in a bother about whether they're open mated. Laughable really, either ban all imports or don't bother.

Strictly speaking you're incorrect
IF it is an AMM, then by virtue of it being an AMM it is automatically a Native Irish Bee ... even if it is living in southern France.

However just to be clear, I was not suggesting anyone is planning on bringing AMM from outside Ireland, I'm just wondering about possible unintended consequences.... from what I have been told there is a demand for 'early queens' that cannot be met from locally produced queens, and I am just wondering if a consequence could be larger scale imports from the Mediterranean area than we actually have at present!

 

[Wilco]

Strictly speaking you're incorrect
IF it is an AMM, then by virtue of it being an AMM it is automatically a Native Irish Bee ... even if it is living in southern France.

However just to be clear, I was not suggesting anyone is planning on bringing AMM from outside Ireland, I'm just wondering about possible unintended consequences.... from what I have been told there is a demand for 'early queens' that cannot be met from locally produced queens, and I am just wondering if a consequence could be larger scale imports from the Mediterranean area than we actually have at present!

Putting aside whether any bee is native to Ireland or even Europe (see comments from @Finman elsewhere regarding the spread of Honey bees), and, as we agree, the debate on whether they even are AMM:

Not sure I follow that logic. Surely, if the claim of a pure Irish gene pool is accepted (for the sake of argument), it is the case that all Irish bees would be AMM but not all AMM would be Irish Bees.

The argument of those pushing the 'native bees' position seems to regularly involve the concept that there are strains which are specific to a certain region or area. AMM from France will not be the same gene pool or adapted to the same environment as any AMM theoretically native to Ireland. Ergo they will not be 'Irish' bees. They will be French bees, with French genetics. If they were imported the other way, from Ireland to France, they would be Irish bees.

Going back to the unintended consequences - increased Med imports may well happen, or there will be a demand for home produced overwintered queens. The latter would be more logically consistent with wanting to protect a 'native' gene pool.

 

[Finman]

Putting aside whether any bee is native to Ireland or even Europe (see comments from @Finman elsewhere regarding the spread of Honey bees), and, as we agree, the debate on whether they even are AMM:

Not sure I follow that logic. Surely, if the claim of a pure Irish gene pool is accepted (for the sake of argument), it is the case that all Irish bees would be AMM but not all AMM would be Irish Bees.

The argument of those pushing the 'native bees' position seems to regularly involve the concept that there are strains which are specific to a certain region or area. AMM from France will not be the same gene pool or adapted to the same environment as any AMM theoretically native to Ireland. Ergo they will not be 'Irish' bees. They will be French bees, with French genetics. If they were imported the other way, from Ireland to France, they would be Irish bees.

Going back to the unintended consequences - increased Med imports may well happen, or there will be a demand for home produced overwintered queens. The latter would be more logically consistent with wanting to protect a 'native' gene pool.

That brain work did not help.

Nature wants to make crossing between individuals. Even bacteria copulate with each other to mix their genes.

Nature never try to go to same genepool. It tryes away that human idea. Perhaps an Irish invention.

It is clear as water, that the German black bee is one species... except the Irish native bee.

A human male creates its semen cells. In its bell/ball a man can form 1000 different gene mixture. The idea is not to make same genes to each semen. Idea is written to the hsbit of meioodis, which is same in plants and in animals. The idea is to mix genes as much as possible and in bees queens mate even with 15 drones to mix the rest.

 

[Finman]

Pure Irish genepool, what is that?
If it is pure enough, it has bad genetic disorders, as we say insemination. What good is in that?

Why don't we classify wolves to 2000 subspecies according every rural village. Dogs are perhaps 600 breeds. They are are not subspecies or races, even if they looks different. A wolf and a dog has same genes, but genes have variations, just like nature has wanted.

 

[Finman]

Putting aside whether any bee is native to Ireland or even Europe (see comments from @Finman elsewhere regarding the spread of Honey bees),

If you think, what native means in human language and how it is used, it is clear, that a honey bee has been a part of nature in Europe and in Ireland.

I am not that stupid that I am not able to use Cambridge Dictionary.

If you try to play games with idea, that honey bee is not native to Europe, you do not have nothing else to say. That is the reason.

A word without context is meaningles.
A human classifyes things and give names to classes, that humans can deliver ideas and change meanings in their head.

If you Wilco wants to generate your own rules to the words and words' meaning, you are a man!

But the British Beekeeping forum is not better or worse place to kill time, even if you keep those meaningless ideas inside you.

 

[Finman]

Native meaning is not so simple to use.

Is a wheat native to Britain? It was imported to Britain 6000 years ago. Perhaps at same time as Black bee arrived to Britain.

 

[Wilco]

If you think, what native means in human language and how it is used, it is clear, that a honey bee has been a part of nature in Europe and in Ireland.

I am not that stupid that I am not able to use Cambridge Dictionary.

If you try to play games with idea, that honey bee is not native to Europe, you do not have nothing else to say. That is the reason.

A word without context is meaningles.
A human classifyes things and give names to classes, that humans can deliver ideas and change meanings in their head.

If you Wilco wants to generate your own rules to the words and words' meaning, you are a man!

But the British Beekeeping forum is not better or worse place to kill time, even if you keep those meaningless ideas inside you.

I was more referring to your post in another thread (see below) and alluding to the fact that different people seem to have different standards of how to define whether something is 'native' or not (e.g. in the UK there are several naturalised species which have been introduced historically, including fallow deer, the brown hare, the rabbit and various other species. Others have made there way here by themselves but historically have not been present within the UK. At what point do we consider any of them native species). I apologise for the lack of clarity- that sentence wasn't particularly useful for the post as a whole.

Yes. Black bee arrived via Gibraltar from Marocco. Italian bee and its cousins came via Asia minor. That was noticed in 2003 when bees genome was mapped first time.

The research says, that classifying bees to subspecies is important to beekeepers, but in biological meaning things are different.

I agree with you as well; the classification of various subspecies is more important to beekeepers than to the bees- as I've said elsewhere, I keep Apis mellifera.

I can happily argue against something on my own terms but that only benefits me and those that already agree with me; countering someone who disagrees with me by doing so on their own terms and following their precepts to their logical conclusion is more interesting. In my posts I was attempting to use the logic of those that argue for 'Irish AMM' (or any country specific population) to demonstrate that, if such a position is held, it is illogical to then allow importation of anything.

 

[Lislarybees]

Pure Irish genepool, what is that?
If it is pure enough, it has bad genetic disorders, as we say insemination. What good is in that?

Why don't we classify wolves to 2000 subspecies according every rural village. Dogs are perhaps 600 breeds. They are are not subspecies or races, even if they looks different. A wolf and a dog has same genes, but genes have variations, just like nature has wanted.

Ok - let's use Tigers as the example instead of wolves

https://news.mongabay.com/2018/10/g...erences between,fur with thick, black stripes.

I think this study can help peoples understanding of what is being discussed. No one in Ireland claims that our Amm population are not the European Dark honeybee. What genetic mapping has shown so far is that there are populations of Amm within Ireland that share less genetic markers with their European relatives. This suggests that the Amm population has survived here in isolation for quite some time. Then at a certain point there was importation of Dutch and French Amm - this is also reflected in the genetics of the population here. Some people try to hijack this then to suggest that that devalues Amm here in some way or makes it less worthy of conservation. It is a strange logic.

If mainland Europe had a functioning Amm population through its whole former range there would be genetic mixing on a constant basis. Irish Amm if it had not been influenced by humans would most likely have become it's own subspecies eventually in the same way the Sumatran Tiger due to its island isolation became its own subspecies. Or some of the Apis subspecies of the mediterranean islands.