Alternative food sources and the effects they have on our bees.

[Michael ECB's]

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience feeding bees fruit like apples and/or oranges or fruit by-products such as jams or waste juices etc.

Off the bat here, I'm not after a quick formula to create "Funny Honey" or what we call Chinese honey ....

I have been playing around here making pollen substitutes (Soya, Yeast, mineral packs, vitamins etc) and have in my opinion had great success growing colony populations through the winter... Tests continue here.....
Couldn't help but wonder what could be achieved if more focus was placed on feed/forage intake as we do here with all other forms of livestock/..

Once again, I'm looking at this from a more livestock point of view...
Not the more traditional "Old School" methods that seem to in many ways remain unchanged...

Thoughts?

 

[Murox]

I don't know particularly about making pollen subs. I will use the usual brand(s) (and I even use vitamin C) from time to time - especially in the spring where I am; as there is sometimes a distinct shortage of pollen or perhaps not enough stable/clement weather to enable them to collect their own. However I have always been been a firm believer in keeping bees ( as far as is possible) in an area with good, varied forage available throughout the year. I even plant some things to help achieve this, particularly late and early pollen sources.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I don't know particularly about making pollen subs. I will use the usual brand(s) (and I even use vitamin C) from time to time - especially in the spring where I am; as there is sometimes a distinct shortage of pollen or perhaps not enough stable/clement weather to enable them to collect their own. However I have always been been a firm believer in keeping bees ( as far as is possible) in an area with good, varied forage available throughout the year. I even plant some things to help achieve this, particularly late and early pollen sources.

Hi Michael, when I was a youngster my grandad use to put fruit out and dark fruit jams, ( home made) with added vitamins.
The bees also use to collect molasses and store it in the hive..
Our veg garden area outside the out house was always buzzing as grandad use to put his best hives right close to the house.. Some times is was a bit of a race to get in the house when the bees were busy.
Im sure he would of had hives in the out house if he was allowed, with extended entrances..

He was as obsessed with his bees as I am... I definitely get it from him.

 

[Michael ECB's]

Very fortunate here to be on a farm. I have a lot of planted pasture around, clover as well as Lucerne (Alfalfa) But cattle are put in before flowering starts, the Lucerne is also harvested and baled as soon as budding starts as this is when we get the highest protein level out of it. (std farming practice here)..
We do also have natural indigenous forage available but was wondering what if .......

What if I supplemented their natural diet/forage with some man made by-products? Would this help? Could this help?
We feed a lot of different livestock and carefully manage intakes to ensure a well balanced and healthy diet is being consumed, why could one not look at bees in a similar way and manage them accordingly... Just a thought...
Could bees be considered livestock? I am of the opinion YES!
Perhaps not domesticated yet but livestock I believe..

We also have a Biodigester here and process a lot of byproducts, chocolates, biscuits and several other sugar/sweet products..
Bees are already here on site and obviously have a field day here,,,, syrups dripping out of bags, caramel, icing sugars and even infant formula powders....
Bees here are mostly wild bees with only one or two of my own colonies that I know of frequenting this site... (No other bee keepers anywhere close)
Very rich and dark honey - the kind that burns the back of your throat.. I love it...

Please also note, we dont sell honey, we give it to family, friends and staff..

I was contemplating on trying this in a more controlled manner and making x-amount available per hive, (Test Single Hive First)
Focus would be on smooth Jam used in the baking industry.. I currently have a few tons of it....
This weeks flavour is apple...

Was hoping someone somewhere would have tried something similar.
Easier to learn from others mistakes...

Hmmmmm.....
I wonder if the bees would simply store it or break it down and process into honey?
Once again,,,, here goes my mind racing again (Or is it just a brain Fart?)

Look forward to hearing some thoughts...
Even from the few keyboard warriors...

 

[Speybee]

Michael this may be of interest?

Since August, beekeepers near the town of Ribeauville, in the northeastern region of Alsace, have been reporting their bees are producing blue and green honey, according to Reuters. And they've traced the cause back to a biogas plant that processes waste from an M&Ms factory.5 Oct 2012
newsfeed.time.com › 2012/10/05
French Bees Produce Blue Honey | TIME.com

 

[Michael ECB's]

Michael this may be of interest?

Since August, beekeepers near the town of Ribeauville, in the northeastern region of Alsace, have been reporting their bees are producing blue and green honey, according to Reuters. And they've traced the cause back to a biogas plant that processes waste from an M&Ms factory.5 Oct 2012
newsfeed.time.com › 2012/10/05
French Bees Produce Blue Honey | TIME.com

Very interesting read Mrs Speybee... Thank you.... Must admit though,,, I just cant imagine bees getting enough of the colourant to "taint" the honey colour that much... Deep tan Smurf Blue.... But I suppose it's in print so it must be true! The honey we got out from the colony very close to the chocolate was extremely dark coloured, but a natural dark resin colour,,,, very rich!

I stuck some holes into a 5kg jam tin today to see if the bees would take to it... it's suspended over some honey comb cuttings from a recent cut out...
Will see what happens I suppose....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Very interesting read Mrs Speybee... Thank you.... Must admit though,,, I just cant imagine bees getting enough of the colourant to "taint" the honey colour that much... Deep tan Smurf Blue.... But I suppose it's in print so it must be true! The honey we got out from the colony very close to the chocolate was extremely dark coloured, but a natural dark resin colour,,,, very rich!

I stuck some holes into a 5kg jam tin today to see if the bees would take to it... it's suspended over some honey comb cuttings from a recent cut out...
Will see what happens I suppose....

Is jam not high in HMF?

 

[Michael ECB's]

To my knowledge , most fruits and vegetables contain HMF's,,, actually almost everything containing natural sugars contain HMF - Including Honey... I suppose levels from different forage types would differ depending on sucrose, fructose etc etc etc.. If memory serves me correct, it was at 20 deg C that hmf levels started to increase in natural honey still in the hive.... Thats before capping, pumping etc etc...

That said, I am not up to speed on all the recent literature,,, have any more recent facts been published.... My my stand point - today butter is healthy, tomorrow margarine is better... This is a good fat,,, but this one clogs and will kill you dead! I'm sure you know what I'm getting at....

 

[Speybee]

Very interesting read Mrs Speybee... Thank you.... Must admit though,,, I just cant imagine bees getting enough of the colourant to "taint" the honey colour that much... Deep tan Smurf Blue.... But I suppose it's in print so it must be true! The honey we got out from the colony very close to the chocolate was extremely dark coloured, but a natural dark resin colour,,,, very rich!

I stuck some holes into a 5kg jam tin today to see if the bees would take to it... it's suspended over some honey comb cuttings from a recent cut out...
Will see what happens I suppose....

With all that wonderful flora and climate you have in your part of the world, would your bees not find enough forage anyway?
Or are you stuck in an area of monoculture such as acres of vineyards?

From that ‘Fancy that?’ article it appears that bees will forage wherever if there is easily available food for them.

Do keep us all updated about how this pans out with the 5Kg jam tin, which reminds me of an ex colleague of mine ( she’s in her 70s) who told me her dad in the Highland village of Nethybridge (before the war) used to keep his bees using old wholesale grocers biscuit tins!

 

[Speybee]

To my knowledge , most fruits and vegetables contain HMF's,,, actually almost everything containing natural sugars contain HMF - Including Honey... I suppose levels from different forage types would differ depending on sucrose, fructose etc etc etc.. If memory serves me correct, it was at 20 deg C that hmf levels started to increase in natural honey still in the hive.... Thats before capping, pumping etc etc...

That said, I am not up to speed on all the recent literature,,, have any more recent facts been published.... My my stand point - today butter is healthy, tomorrow margarine is better... This is a good fat,,, but this one clogs and will kill you dead! I'm sure you know what I'm getting at....

As I come out from my wee stone, what is an HMF?

 

[Michael ECB's]

As I come out from my wee stone, what is an HMF?

I had to google it,,,, Hydroxymethylfurfural - Wikipedia
It was thought to be a possible cancer causing.... thingy.... I think it's high risk just breathing at the moment.... weill thats if I believe everything I read.....
However, I do stand to correction with this,,, perhaps more has been discovered re HMF's,,,, but then they will probably just change their minds later anyway..

 

[Speybee]

I had to google it,,,, Hydroxymethylfurfural - Wikipedia
It was thought to be a possible cancer causing.... thingy.... I think it's high risk just breathing at the moment.... weill thats if I believe everything I read.....
However, I do stand to correction with this,,, perhaps more has been discovered re HMF's,,,, but then they will probably just change their minds later anyway..

Thanks for the link I will look up what I can about this......Jings!....is there nothing safe to eat apart from ‘fresh air’ sandwiches?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is jam not high in HMF?

and isn't a pound of sugar cheaper than a pound of jam?

 

[Erichalfbee]

and isn't a pound of sugar cheaper than a pound of jam?

Maybe not where Michael lives.
Have you seen the price if this stuff?
Does anybody give it to their bees?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What kind of snake oil is that?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Invert with lots of goodies in it

 

[Speybee]

I had to google it,,,, Hydroxymethylfurfural - Wikipedia
It was thought to be a possible cancer causing.... thingy.... I think it's high risk just breathing at the moment.... weill thats if I believe everything I read.....
However, I do stand to correction with this,,, perhaps more has been discovered re HMF's,,,, but then they will probably just change their minds later anyway..

Curious as ever, I looked up HMF and a comprehensive paper caught my eye, titled
HMF levels in honey & other food products; effects on bees and human health
By Shapla, Solayman and Hua Gan.

HMF causing interest amongst scientists, it’s an enigma.
Depending on whether you are a glass half full, or half empty type, either way it’s interesting stuff.

On human health some effects of HMF remain indecisive but the words carcinogen, DNA damaging always arouse interest or even fear.

On human health it appears to have positive effects and such words Anti-Oxidative ( remember Manuka honey?) Anti-Allergic, Anti- Inflammatory ( remember folk using local honey for hay fever?) are great marketing tools to increase sales.

No heat processed food is free of HMF.

On bee health ( reading page 21 of the paper) the finger is being pointed to the practice in the USA of feeding bees high fructose corn syrup, high in HMF posing a potential threat to honeybees.

Beet sugar gets a drubbing too as it’s reported to contain up to 475mg/kg HMF depending on processing and storage conditions.
(reading page 22 of the paper) in a study a sugar solution containing 30-150mg/kg HMF used to feed honeybees was found to cause15-58.7% DEATHS of caged bees within 20 days, the hypothesis being that HMF causes bees to experience dysentery like symptoms leading to death.

Conclusion of the paper.
Some effects of HMF on human health remain inconclusive
Multiple factors affect HMF production in honey and other foodstuffs.
The challenge is how to prevent and reduce formation of HMF.

Maybe my initial response of a diet of fresh air sandwiches was half way there....no bread allowed now☹

 

[Speybee]

Very fortunate here to be on a farm. I have a lot of planted pasture around, clover as well as Lucerne (Alfalfa) But cattle are put in before flowering starts, the Lucerne is also harvested and baled as soon as budding starts as this is when we get the highest protein level out of it. (std farming practice here)..
We do also have natural indigenous forage available but was wondering what if .......

What if I supplemented their natural diet/forage with some man made by-products? Would this help? Could this help?
We feed a lot of different livestock and carefully manage intakes to ensure a well balanced and healthy diet is being consumed, why could one not look at bees in a similar way and manage them accordingly... Just a thought...
Could bees be considered livestock? I am of the opinion YES!
Perhaps not domesticated yet but livestock I believe..

We also have a Biodigester here and process a lot of byproducts, chocolates, biscuits and several other sugar/sweet products..
Bees are already here on site and obviously have a field day here,,,, syrups dripping out of bags, caramel, icing sugars and even infant formula powders....
Bees here are mostly wild bees with only one or two of my own colonies that I know of frequenting this site... (No other bee keepers anywhere close)
Very rich and dark honey - the kind that burns the back of your throat.. I love it...

Please also note, we dont sell honey, we give it to family, friends and staff..

I was contemplating on trying this in a more controlled manner and making x-amount available per hive, (Test Single Hive First)
Focus would be on smooth Jam used in the baking industry.. I currently have a few tons of it....
This weeks flavour is apple...

Was hoping someone somewhere would have tried something similar.
Easier to learn from others mistakes...

Hmmmmm.....
I wonder if the bees would simply store it or break it down and process into honey?
Once again,,,, here goes my mind racing again (Or is it just a brain Fart?)

Look forward to hearing some thoughts...
Even from the few keyboard warriors...

The paper,
HMF levels in honey and other foodstuffs; effects on bees and human health by Shapla, Solayman and Hua Gan (may be of interest and answer some of your questions regarding the varied diet of your visiting bees.)

Id never heard of this HMF prior to your post and boy has it opened a can of worms!....that’s my once in a while treat, of a Special fish supper or a Tunnocks Teacake now relegated to once a year ( I’m losing the will to live now)

Interesting paper, with clear evidence to links clearly cited. Food for thought.

 

[Speybee]

Is beekeeping not getting a bit over complicated with all these different feeds?
Why don’t we each plant a fruit tree somewhere?

 

[Speybee]

Maybe not where Michael lives.
Have you seen the price if this stuff?
Does anybody give it to their bees?

Is this not high in HMF?