Allergic reaction to bees wax

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Evaporation is not the same as boiling

Clever boy, but noone mentioned evaporation.
you really are clutching at straws now - read that again properly and you will find that at 100°C it's the water in Oxalic dihydrate that evaporates, the OA doesn't sublimate until 157°
As usual you have reduced to posting absolute gibberish

 

[Into the lions den]

Gee...what a strange thread.

Take it down to the simplest basics.

Oxalic acid is a water soluble substance. It is not an oil miscible substance to any degree.

We handle many tonnes of wax a year.....both our own and imported...and see and obtiain analyses. We NEVER bleach our wax, the bees don't give a rats *** about the colour.

The non beewax substances range from 30 odd up to 70 odd. None of them were oxalic acid.

Its a non issue.

However...if you DID have OA rich water as part of your purifying process it will stratify out in the cooling process, and then you need to go again with pure clean water to cleanse anything water based out..and then once more with intense filtration to get rid of the droplets that may be inside ..nothing worse than nasty spitty candles...so by the time you get to actually making candles you should not have ANY water in the wax.
FWIW....I don't actually know of anyone else using oxalic either so this is not a 'holier than thou' thread.

Overcomplication. Goal post moving. Straw man erecting.

 

[fian]

Clever boy, but noone mentioned evaporation.
you really are clutching at straws now - read that again properly and you will find that at 100°C it's the water in Oxalic dihydrate that evaporates, the OA doesn't sublimate until 157°
As usual you have reduced to posting absolute gibberish

I talked about oxalic acid vapors, which, as you will understand, begin to be produced at 101.5°C in the absence of other substances and I never mentioned sublimation.

 

[Sutty]

I talked about oxalic acid vapors, which, as you will understand, begin to be produced at 101.5°C in the absence of other substances and I never mentioned sublimation.

Could you give a data source for this please?

 

[Sutty]

The only thing I can find is that at 101.67 the water boils off to produce anhydrous oxalic acid.
I think it is irrelevant to the OPs initial question.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Gee...what a strange thread.

Nobody has bees to play with yet. March Madness

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I talked about oxalic acid vapors, which, as you will understand, begin to be produced at 101.5°C

they don't
as usual, you are wrong
In actual fact everything you have posted in this thread thus far has either been irrelevant
Or wrong

 

[fian]

Could you give a data source for this please?

Any liquid emits vapors above its melting point, which for oxalic acid is 101.5°C. Another thing is the quantity, which will be greater as the temperature approaches the boiling point.

 

[fian]

they don't
as usual, you are wrong
In actual fact everything you have posted in this thread thus far has either been irrelevant
Or wrong

I accept that it may seem irrelevant to you but not incorrect.
By the way if they do it all depends on the atmospheric pressure there. Or does water boil at the same temperature at sea level as at 2,000 m altitude?
I also find it curious that you pay attention to what bothers you and not to what is being written, but this defect is very common and is not specific to this forum.

 

[fian]

Gee...what a strange thread.

Take it down to the simplest basics.

Oxalic acid is a water soluble substance. It is not an oil miscible substance to any degree.

We handle many tonnes of wax a year.....both our own and imported...and see and obtiain analyses. We NEVER bleach our wax, the bees don't give a rats *** about the colour.

The non beewax substances range from 30 odd up to 70 odd. None of them were oxalic acid.

Its a non issue.

However...if you DID have OA rich water as part of your purifying process it will stratify out in the cooling process, and then you need to go again with pure clean water to cleanse anything water based out..and then once more with intense filtration to get rid of the droplets that may be inside ..nothing worse than nasty spitty candles...so by the time you get to actually making candles you should not have ANY water in the wax.
FWIW....I don't actually know of anyone else using oxalic either so this is not a 'holier than thou' thread.

Overcomplication. Goal post moving. Straw man erecting.

Wax is not an oil, it is a set of chemical substances, mainly esters (reaction between a fatty acid and an alcohol). But it turns out that oxalic acid can react with the minor fraction (acids, free alcohols and simple elements). It is in this case that there may be accumulation.
But is the oxalic content requested in the analyzes or is it not mentioned because there is no obligation to specify it? What is for "pesticide free" legislation?
Regarding the use of oxalic in the whitening process, I do not practice it and I have always pointed to one more possibility apart from the others that were mentioned.

 

[Sutty]

The melting point of oxalic acid ranges from 189.5˚C to 191˚C

https://www.aakash.ac.in/important-...rties of Oxalic Acid,g/cc in dihydrate state.

 

[fian]

The melting point of oxalic acid ranges from 189.5˚C to 191˚C

https://www.aakash.ac.in/important-...rties of Oxalic Acid,g/cc in dihydrate state.

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Oxalic-acid-dihydrate

 

[mdotb]

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Oxalic-acid-dihydrate

The reference you cite (pubchem) quotes its source for the melting point as being ILO International Chemical Safety Cards ICSC 0707 - OXALIC ACID DIHYDRATE . Following that link provides:
"Melting point: 101-102 °C See Notes."

The notes on the same card state (my emphasis):

NOTES
The apparent melting point caused by loss of crystal water is given. The substance can be dehydrated by careful drying at 100 °C, but considerable loss occurs through sublimation. See ICSC 0529.

For interest, ICSC 0529 is for Oxalic Acid (rather than the dihydrate) which is what the latter becomes when the water is evaporated off. The reason we talk about "sublimation" of Oxalic Acid is that is has no liquid phase under normal atmospheric conditions - and thus no meaningful melting point (the 189.5 C cited being above the sublimation point).

 

[fian]

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/icsc/showcard.display?p_lang=en&p_card_id=0529&p_version=2This is the token the partner refers to.
In the notes it is specified that sublimation begins at temperatures above 100°C, that it is optimal at 157°C and that higher temperatures lead to losses due to decomposition into formic acid and carbon dioxide.
But also in the risk section, although it says that evaporation at 20°C is insignificant, it warns that a harmful concentration can be reached, so the use of protection is mandatory.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Any liquid emits vapors above its melting point, which for oxalic acid is 101.5°C

Just admit you're talking rubbish, you've turned this thread into an absolute joke

 

[Karol]

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/icsc/showcard.display?p_lang=en&p_card_id=0529&p_version=2This is the token the partner refers to.
In the notes it is specified that sublimation begins at temperatures above 100°C, that it is optimal at 157°C and that higher temperatures lead to losses due to decomposition into formic acid and carbon dioxide.
But also in the risk section, although it says that evaporation at 20°C is insignificant, it warns that a harmful concentration can be reached, so the use of protection is mandatory.

The problem with MSDS's is that they are written in response to potential hazards across all aspects of the material life cycle especially where there is greatest risk, i.e. industrial scale production.

This is where I think you have come unstuck because you are referencing information completely out of context which does you no favours reputationally.

Your quote reference reaching harmful concentrations omits the part 'when dispersed'. This is code for industrial scale spillage or containment failure. If you have a spill of a few 100 tonnes of Oxalic Acid then yes, you need PPE when in proximity to such a vast amount of Oxalic Acid. This has no bearing when handling 2-3g in a well ventilated area out of an otherwise sealed tub where vapour pressure quickly equilibrates to prevent sublimation.

You also miss quote evaporation which does happen at 100°C but not at atmospheric pressures conducive to human comfort which is where most beeswax rendering and candle production occurs.

Quite simply it's a non starter and not helpful to the OP who needs a little guidance on where things are not going the way one would expect. Time to bow to the wisdom of experienced beekeepers who would otherwise be dead from pulmonary fibrosis by now if what you are saying were true as would my staff who melt tons of Beeswax BP per annum during pharmaceutical production of products containing beeswax.

 

[Xander]

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent into the realms of organic chemistry and the properties of oxalic acid.
In answer to the OP, nobody appears to have had the same problem as yourself.
If you don't get the same symptoms when burning your candles then definitely check your Bain Marie is working properly and clean., (Remember that when burning a single candle you won't get nearly as much vapour as having your head over a pot of molten wax)
Check the temperature of your wax when it's fully molten and at it's hottest it shouldn't be much more than 70c or it could give off irritating vapours.
Try a different source for your wax just to see if yours is contaminated with 'something' / anything irritant.
Wear a P3 mask or higher grade if necessary and increase the ventilation while melting your wax and the problem is solved.
Have a good and productive year ahead

 

[Erichalfbee]

And that @Robxander is a good place to stop. Thankyou

 

[Into the lions den]

Wax is not an oil

Never said it was. However water miscible and oil miscible compounds tend to stay within their own family of mediums. (maybe not strictly scientific..but unless they are specific types of compounds like soaps which are partially soluble in both then they keep largely to their own type. OA and wax have very low affinity.

But is the oxalic content requested in the analyzes or is it not mentioned because there is no obligation to specify it? What is for "pesticide free" legislation?

Its a general analysis procedure for ALL items likely to be beekeeper or environmentally added. OA is on the very long list of, at last count, over 700, compounds being looked for.. It is NEVER found.

You are only 'likely' to meet OA if the wax contains a fine suspension of water droplets AND some pretty serious concentrations of OA have been present in the rendering water.

Just why that should or would ever be escapes me. Its a straw man.

 

[Paddyg]

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent into the realms of organic chemistry and the properties of oxalic acid.
In answer to the OP, nobody appears to have had the same problem as yourself.
If you don't get the same symptoms when burning your candles then definitely check your Bain Marie is working properly and clean., (Remember that when burning a single candle you won't get nearly as much vapour as having your head over a pot of molten wax)
Check the temperature of your wax when it's fully molten and at it's hottest it shouldn't be much more than 70c or it could give off irritating vapours.
Try a different source for your wax just to see if yours is contaminated with 'something' / anything irritant.
Wear a P3 mask or higher grade if necessary and increase the ventilation while melting your wax and the problem is solved.
Have a good and productive year ahead

Thanks for your response. Replies to date not really what I was looking for! I appreciate it!