*** alleles

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No. It is called British Intellectual Poking.
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Nothing wrong with that - once went out with a girl who had a double first at Oxford.

 

[Icing Sugar]

If you return to post 34 in this thread then you will find an attachment that covers the key points in this debate and considerably more.

Of the 150 or so CSD alleles, every queen or worker will have 2 and every drone will have 1.

When you understand the interplay between all of the following factors then you cannot fail but be amazed at the genius behind the genetics of honey bee reproduction:

1. Nearly all honey bee behaviour is described within the honey bee genome. Bees behave in the way that their genes dictate in response to the crossing of relevant environmental thresholds. As they age, their hormonal balance changes and this alters their relative sensitivity to different environmental thresholds. Genes are everything. (That part of the behavioural repertoire that is undoubtedly learnt is little more than a refinement of genetically hardwired behaviour).

2. The more genetic diversity that exists in a colony, the greater the range of thresholds to the same environmental stimuli. This results in better exploitation of opportunities and better mitigation of threats in the evironment. Increased genetic diversity also improves disease resistance.

3. Under steady state ecological conditions, as many colonies will fail as there are swarms. In other words, the least fit colonies with the least fit genomes will die every single year. Human beings have messed this up in two ways. In the UK we constantly import bees from other parts of Europe (or further afield) that are (or once were) genetically optimised for very different geographic and climatic conditions - we import environmentally suboptimal genes with these bees. In contast, the importation of honey bees is very restricted indeed in the US and the gene pool is less diverse.

4. Being haploid, if a drone contains a fatal or highly suboptimal gene that is essential for its daily life or reproduction then there is nowhere for it to hide because there is not a second allele within its genome to obscure it. This is very effective at getting rid of any new but fatal mutations. (This theoretically allows for a very high mutation rate for adaptability to environmental change).

5. Honey bee queens mix up their DNA during meiosis far more than humans or most other animals. This means that all of the favourable genes within their genome are recombined to a staggering amount. Each drone that passes the test in paragraph 4 and leaves the hive in an attempt to mate represents a unique combination of genes of proven worth in that environmental niche.

6. A queen goes to a drone congregation area to mate with as large a number of drones in as short a time as possible. This ensures that her progeny is as genetically diverse as possible, thereby conferring all of the benefits in paragraph 2. There is no known method employed within the animal kingdom that mixes up DNA more than this.

7. Perhaps 20,000 drones are in direct competition at a drone congregation area. Only the very fittest (and luckiest) drones will get to mate. The mathematical chance of a single drone mating twice is so small that they are designed to put all their resources into trying to mate just once, after which they have done their job and die.

8. The CSD gene offers about 50% protection against inbreeding because diploid larvae that are homozygous for their CSD gene do not survive. Surely this detail lets us know how important genetic diversity and genetic mixing (WITH ENVIRONMENTALLY-TESTED AND ENVIRONMENTALLY-SUITED GENES) is to the honey bee.

9. Inbreeding simply isn't a concern in many parts of the UK because there will be drones from 100s of colonies at every drone congregation area. See the closing pages of my attachment for a worked example. This example uses what we believe to be an ecologically-appropriate density of colonies. However, BeeBase tells me that there are very many more hives in my area than the ecological optimum. (The problem as I see it in my area is the influx of environmentally suboptimal genes from imported queens).

10. Inbreeding might be a problem in the US where so many colonies have been derived from so few hives from so many years ago. It might also be a problem in hostile environments where honey bees can only just survive naturally.

Plesse see attachment for numerous references and more ideas.

 

[Finman]

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This discussion is interesting if we compare it to the idea, that inseminated queens can be as good as open mated

It warns too, that if you make your own mating station, what kind of drone mixture you have there, or do you have only one drone hive .

If the drone gang has serious gene error, soon that error is in one half of your hives.


The error may be what ever, what you do not notice in time.

Couple years ago I tried a wide range of hybrid vigour, but the whole system slipped from my hands. I must buy queens from real beebreeder.

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[Icing Sugar]

PS. Surely the reason why it is so harmful for the eggs of a queen bee to be fertilized by the sperm of one of her brothers is that the proportion of the subsequent diploid genome that comprises homozygous genes becomes staggeringly high (look through the list in my previous post to see why this is especially true in the honey bee). If such a fertilised egg becomes a queen bee then genetic diversity in her colony is dramatically reduced no matter how well she might mate herself (I would suggest that it falls by 25% but check for yourself - the maths is easy). Such a scenario is the exact opposite of what a healthy colony needs, hence the value of the CSD gene system.






To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
(William Blake)

 

[Icing Sugar]

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I must buy queens from real beebreeder.

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Indeed, and I suggest that there are two reasons for this:

1. I would view Finland as a hostile environment for honey bees, right on the cusp of where they can naturally survive. Mating will be more difficult there. (Hats off to Finman for his beekeeping skills in this difficult environment).

2. Finman's annual honey yields per colony are prodigious. These are very special bees by the sound of it. No wonder the queens are bought from a bee breeding specialist.

 

[B+.]

Finman's annual honey yields per colony are prodigious. These are very special bees by the sound of it. No wonder the queens are bought from a bee breeding specialist.

Indeed....but contrast this with Mike Palmer who is selecting bees to suit his environment. Which approach is sustainable?

 

[Finman]

Indeed....but contrast this with Mike Palmer who is selecting bees to suit his environment. Which approach is sustainable?

What what what!!!!! What heck is that!

Sustainable, local...... Oh dear, what words... How do you know that my bees do not suit to environment?

B+, are you saying that I do not understand from where I buy my new queens?
The place , from where I bought the queens, is more harsh than my place.

I have explained many times, that when I have 20 hives, it is impossible to keep on good own stock of bees. Inbreeding faults are all the time behind the corner.

In 20 hives stock there are only 1 or 2 hives, which I can imagine as mother queen.

NOW, when my whole apiary become a mess via hybridization, I bought all new mated queens. So I kicked off the old genepool, and virgins' drone heritage.

Decades I have bought couple of queens from good beekeepers, and I have reared new queens and changed every year the queens in profuctive hives.

By mated queens I kicked off the whole old genepool with their swarming habits.

 

[Beefriendly]

3. Under steady state ecological conditions, as many colonies will fail as there are swarms. In other words, the least fit colonies with the least fit genomes will die every single year. Human beings have messed this up in two ways. In the UK we constantly import bees from other parts of Europe (or further afield) that are (or once were) genetically optimised for very different geographic and climatic conditions - we import environmentally suboptimal genes with these bees. In contast, the importation of honey bees is very restricted indeed in the US and the gene pool is less diverse.

Very good post there.
I would just suggest one thing, survival of the fittest only really applies if there is no helping hand by man.
Keeping bees in hives and taking them along the pathway to domestication negates this and as "farmers" we want the characteristics (genes) we desire in our bees not the characteristics that may enable a wild colony to survive.
There's a fundamental difference.
And even if we were concerned about survival of wild colonies then imports broaden the gene pool and may allow survival of wild colonies in ways we don't yet understand. They may bring in sub optimal genes but by the same token they will also bring genes that enhance survival of "local" wild bees.

 

[Finman]

No wonder the queens are bought from a bee breeding specialist.

It is so simple, that if the hive owner has 500 or 1500 colonies, it is easier to find perfect mother queens than from 20 hives' apiary.
Most of hives in 20 hives apiary are hybrids, and not useample as motjer queens.

When you feel pity for my hostile evironment, think about my 150 kg hives, what I have every year.

.

 

[Beefriendly]

Indeed....but contrast this with Mike Palmer who is selecting bees to suit his environment. Which approach is sustainable?

Both IMHO. Either of these approaches currently seem to be successful.
As Finman says he doesn't have a large enough gene pool to pursue his own breeding program. I don't know how many colonies Mr. Palmer has, but I'm sure it's quite large enough for him to pursue his own approach.
There is more than enough room in beekeeping for each approach, but we shouldn't assume one has a more sustainable ethic than the other.

 

[Beefriendly]

think about my 150 kg hives, what I have every year.

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I worry about what it's doing to your back!

 

[Finman]

And even if we were concerned about survival of wild colonies then imports broaden the gene pool and may allow survival of wild colonies in ways we don't yet understand. They may bring in sub optimal genes but by the same token they will also bring genes that enhance survival of "local" wild bees.

In my country we have wild bees, but they are just escaped swarms, and they have no breeding value. It has been seen so many times.

When varroa killed Black Bees here, bee breeding has been easy job here.

 

[Beefriendly]

PS. Surely the reason why it is so harmful for the eggs of a queen bee to be fertilized by the sperm of one of her brothers is that the proportion of the subsequent diploid genome that comprises homozygous genes becomes staggeringly high

Yes, but the lines and crosses that can be kept for research by inbreeding are an immense tool, although perhaps not recommended for beekeepers needs.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Decades I have bought couple of queens from good beekeepers, and I have reared new queens and changed every year the queens in profuctive hives.

To each their own, but requeening every colony every year is a mistake in my opinion. By doing so, how will we select for queen longevity or sucessful supercedure? I have colonies that remain healthy and productive over a decade or more. These are the colonies that go on the possible breeder list. A breeder I used this year and last came from a colony that was set up with the original queen in 2001. That colony has been a top producer in its apiary ever since, with no drop in production since that time. This to me means the colonies requeens itself by supercedure and not swarming. The colonies headed by her daughters are amazing in their performance.

If I requeened every colony every year, the genetics would have been lost.

 

[Finman]

There is more than enough room in beekeeping for each approach, but we shouldn't assume one has a more sustainable ethic than the other.

If my beekeeping is sustainable or ethic, I stop it at once and go to my wife to capital city.

 

[Icing Sugar]

Indeed....but contrast this with Mike Palmer who is selecting bees to suit his environment. Which approach is sustainable?

Acknowledged. Very good point. Thanks for making it. It is the approach that I follow too.

I was simply trying to soothe a poked eye rather than poke it again.

All too often on this forum some of us tend to bash each other about, resulting in highly predictable public spats of attack and counter-attack that soon drift away from beekeeping altogether. A proportion of us are far too easily baited in this way. Maybe those on the receiving end deserve it in the eyes of some but it does get rather tedious for many of us.

I have had some comparatively reflective responses from Finman when I have tried to come alongside, insofar as I can. Just look at how his tone completely changed in response to my post. This is surely what we want on a forum like this. I would suggest that all of us hold ideas that are still in evolution. These will unfold over time. We will enjoy the journey more and be more productive if we don't goad each other so much. Sometimes these threads remind me of the chaos in and around an irreversibly queenless hive.

I have a very stressful job, immersed in the care of the dying. Only yesterday I was physically assaulted twice by a psychotic person that I am trying to help (NB. I am using the genuine clinical definition of the term and not the lay understanding of the term). Home is extremely busy too. Right now I am single-handedly trying to look after 7 children, 4 of whom aren't mine. Beekeeping is my personal retreat. It is where I refresh myself. I come to this forum to learn and relax rather than to fight or watch fighting. I generally only do so when I am in particular need of some quiet personal space. If I can extend a soothing word to Finman once in a while then I will do so. In my experience, many of the people who make the most disruption in a group are the very ones most in need some kind of personal recognition.

 

[Beefriendly]

In my country we have wild bees, but they are just escaped swarms, and they have no breeding value.

Highly revered by UK beekeepers are "local" swarms of bees. It's not surprisng that few harvest more than a super of honey....and that's in a good year.

I buy in queens from established breeder each year. Some are breeder queens, good for one generation of offspring. I enjoy rearing my own queens.
Otherwise I'd just buy replacement F! queens as needed.
It also allows me to indulge my curiosity about how different strains of bees thrive in my local environment. The results can be quite surprising. The worst bees of the lot are the local supposedly well adapted mongrels. Bad temper, poor honey yields, annual swarming. Needless to say I haven't kept any of these queens for many years.

 

[Finman]

To each their own, but requeening every colony every year is a mistake in my opinion. By doing so, how will we select for queen longevity or sucessful supercedure? I have colonies that remain healthy and productive over a decade or more. These are the colonies that go on the possible breeder list. A breeder I used this year and last came from a colony that was set up with the original queen in 2001. That colony has been a top producer in its apiary ever since, with no drop in production since that time. This to me means the colonies requeens itself by supercedure and not swarming. The colonies headed by her daughters are amazing in their performance.

If I requeened every colony every year, the genetics would have been lost.

You have 700 hives and my queen seller has 1500 hives.

He makes the selecting work for me. I select the queen sellers, who sell to me such queens what I need.

I do not keep queen sellers very honest men. I have met all kind of specialist during 50 years.
I try first with couple of queens, what they really are.
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Few years ago I bought queens from 1000 hive owner. What I can say about those queens was "good buy".


.

 

[Fusion_power]

When you feel pity for my hostile evironment, think about my 150 kg hives, what I have every year.

I recall a few bitter complaints this year about daily rain that disrupted the best laid plans for huge honey harvests.

I'm going out to the greenhouse and see if the sun has warmed it up enough to do some more painting. If not, I'll assemble a round of frames. When that is done, perhaps I'll cut down a tree or two that need to be removed.

 

[Finman]

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Why to requeen every year the queens?

- two year old queen is any more a top layer. It is rare if its yield is over 100 kg any more

- one year old queen does not swarm so easily as 2 years old.

- when I buy mother queens outside, I do not care are recent queens going to swarm next year.

Why I do this. It is the result of my experiences.

And you all should note that own queens are not free. They are expencive...when I make mating nucs, I loose one hive's yield.

One hives yield may be 1000 euros, and I can buy with that quite many queens.
But on another hand, I need every year new nucs too and spare hives

If I see that a new queen is not good, I squeeze it at once and take a spare queen.

.i do not accept supercedure queens. They use to be under average.
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