Air and crystallisation

[Antipodes]

Does anyone know why exposing liquid honey to air (eg. uncapping it) causes (or starts/hastens) crystallisation?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

does it?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I suspect my honey would crystallise just the same on the comb as in the bucket or jar if kept in the same conditions

 

[Antipodes]

I was looking at this video the other day when I was thinking of cut comb honey (prompted by recent thread on here) and then heard comments (Bruce White) from 7mins 30...and more particularly around 8 m 10sec.

 

[Antipodes]

The newspaper comment at about 8m 40 was interesting too.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't know about most people on here, but I tend not to keep my honey in uncovered buckets or jars - so the amount of 'exposure' to air is very little. As for cut comb, the same, the only honey that gets exposed to air is around the cuts - which gets drained away anyway, you don't uncap comb honey before presenting it for sale (well, most thinking beekeepers don't anyway)

 

[fian]

It depends on the temperature and humidity of the environment. Uncapped honey exchanges water based on air pressures. Below 50% honey give in water and above 80% honey absorbs water.

 

[Ian123]

I don't know about most people on here, but I tend not to keep my honey in uncovered buckets or jars - so the amount of 'exposure' to air is very little. As for cut comb, the same, the only honey that gets exposed to air is around the cuts - which gets drained away anyway, you don't uncap comb honey before presenting it for sale (well, most thinking beekeepers don't anyway)

But he doesn’t drain it thank god am sure that will upset the show judges amongst us!

 

[Antipodes]

I don't know about most people on here, but I tend not to keep my honey in uncovered buckets or jars - so the amount of 'exposure' to air is very little. As for cut comb, the same, the only honey that gets exposed to air is around the cuts - which gets drained away anyway, you don't uncap comb honey before presenting it for sale (well, most thinking beekeepers don't anyway)

There is a fair bit of exposure in the extractor though surely...before it goes in the buckets?

I don't want to consign the matter to the myths section just yet as this guy has been around a while,,,

https://extensionaus.com.au/professionalbeekeepers/expert/bruce-white/
I just found more comments from him here about air...although he's not making any connection there with crystallisation.

https://extensionaus.com.au/professionalbeekeepers/how-to-produce-award-winning-honey/

 

[JamezF]

I don't want to consign the matter to the myths section just yet as this guy has been around a while

On the other hand, just because he's been around for a while doesn't mean there's more chance of him being right Even brilliant people can get some things hideously wrong. Take Einstein's attitude towards Quantum Mechanics (or indeed Plate Tectonics, I believe) as an example. "Mistrust arguments from authority", as Carl Sagan once said. Authoritatively

I've no idea whether it's true or not, but I wonder if there might be some extrapolation from knowledge of how relatively weak solutions can crystallise. For example, if you took a solution of salt and split it into two containers, one open, one closed, the open one might crystallise faster because the water molecules can evaporate into the atmosphere easily, and potentially dust particles can get into the solution and act as nuclei for crystals to form on.

Honey will absorb rather than give up water though, and will probably contain more than enough pollen and suchlike where crystals will start to form, so applying the above reasoning wouldn't be appropriate.

It might be an interesting experiment to carry out, but should probably be done at a range of temperatures and humidities with honeys containing varying proportions of fructose and glucose, and I'm not about to waste that much honey myself

James

 

[Antipodes]

On the other hand, just because he's been around for a while doesn't mean there's more chance of him being right Even brilliant people can get some things hideously wrong. Take Einstein's attitude towards Quantum Mechanics (or indeed Plate Tectonics, I believe) as an example. "Mistrust arguments from authority", as Carl Sagan once said. Authoritatively

I've no idea whether it's true or not, but I wonder if there might be some extrapolation from knowledge of how relatively weak solutions can crystallise. For example, if you took a solution of salt and split it into two containers, one open, one closed, the open one might crystallise faster because the water molecules can evaporate into the atmosphere easily, and potentially dust particles can get into the solution and act as nuclei for crystals to form on.

Honey will absorb rather than give up water though, and will probably contain more than enough pollen and suchlike where crystals will start to form, so applying the above reasoning wouldn't be appropriate.

It might be an interesting experiment to carry out, but should probably be done at a range of temperatures and humidities with honeys containing varying proportions of fructose and glucose, and I'm not about to waste that much honey myself

James

I agree, but it makes it quite suitable for the myths thread if it's not true and comes from someone with so many years of experience .

I recall keeping a few frames of capped honey for emergency feed for the bees last year if required (honey is much cheaper here), and wondered whether it had crystallised (stored in a shed) before handing it over. ... knowing that the very same honey that I'd extracted and put in jars (some still hanging around) had crystallised. It was still liquid in the honeycomb under the capping in the small sections I scraped back. Not exactly a proper experiment or anything.

 

[Erichalfbee]

But he doesn’t drain it thank god am sure that will upset the show judges amongst us!

Cut comb into the freezer keeps honey runny

 

[Garry R]

Just a thought. I have some cut comb honey which is now about 6months old and when it gets crushed is still liquid but some other comb is crystallised. My extracted honey has on the other hand crystallised in the 30lb buckets without exception. Is it possible that the extraction mixes up the potential crystallising honey so it self- seeds itself in the process while the "still liquid" comb honey comes from pockets of non-crystallising honey in the supers.

 

[oxnatbees]

On the other hand, just because he's been around for a while doesn't mean there's more chance of him being right

Agreed

Even brilliant people can get some things hideously wrong. Take Einstein's attitude towards Quantum Mechanics (or indeed Plate Tectonics, I believe) as an example.

Not quite sure what specific you're referring to. He won a Nobel prize for helping found QM, so didn't exactly have problems with it. He had a few quibbles with 'spooky action at a distance' which still makes most people do a double-take, and I once heard from a dubious source he actually was PRO plate tectonics which you may know was rejected by mainstream geologists until the 1960s(!).

 

[JamezF]

Not quite sure what specific you're referring to. He won a Nobel prize for helping found QM, so didn't exactly have problems with it. He had a few quibbles with 'spooky action at a distance' which still makes most people do a double-take, and I once heard from a dubious source he actually was PRO plate tectonics which you may know was rejected by mainstream geologists until the 1960s(!).

His Nobel prize was for his work on the photoelectric effect and he was involved with the development of QM, but he had quite a problem with the entire probablistic nature of it (the famous "God doesn't play dice" quote that wasn't actually quite what he said) and as far as I'm aware remained unaccepting of it until his death. He also had public disagreements with Neils Bohr about it.

I'll try to find the plate tectonics reference. First I need to remember where I read it

James

 

[oxnatbees]

Please don't waste your time, I'm being uneccessarily pedantic.

 

[Antipodes]

Just a thought. I have some cut comb honey which is now about 6months old and when it gets crushed is still liquid but some other comb is crystallised. My extracted honey has on the other hand crystallised in the 30lb buckets without exception. Is it possible that the extraction mixes up the potential crystallising honey so it self- seeds itself in the process while the "still liquid" comb honey comes from pockets of non-crystallising honey in the supers.

Yep, sounds possible for sure.
I reckon air causing crystallisation is incorrect.
The honey is after all exposed to the air in the hive before capping and there are plenty of airborne microscopic dust particles in the air so the small time it is exposed to air after and during extraction shouldn't matter.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19440049.2017.1347281?journalCode=tfac20
I'll have do do another test...there's bound to be a capped frame I can't fit into the extractor. I'll try to get it from the same source.
Perhaps it's the introduction of tiny air bubbles into the honey with extraction which gives the glucose crystals extra starting points?


As Jenkins says, with the honeycomb cutter the only honey that gets exposed to air is around the cuts, so as far as that goes, consequent crystallisation of the entire section sounds like a myth.

 

[Antipodes]

I just found a capped frame from from my last harvest (in January) in the shed. All the extracted stuff has well crystallised..weeks ago (that's the type of honey it is), but when I dug into the capped frame (same honey...box labelled), it's still runny. Another uncapped frame still had a bit I could uncap. (see videos). From previous experience it will most likely crystallise soon, I found some on the other side that looks like it's starting, but mostly it hasn't yet. It's the tiny bubbles hastening crystal formation from the extracting process that's the cause isn't it?

 

[jeff33]

Rather than air it could be molecular friction or excitement caused by the extraction and once the molecules get back to their normal state will bound again at a faster rate on particles.

 

[Garry R]

Without starting another thread can anyone suggest the best way of allowing crystalisation of honey eg warm or cold so it does not form the ghastly large crystals at the bottom of a jar with the liquid at the top. I realise that seeding with fine crystals helps but the physical conditions would be of interest.