aggressive colony carbon dioxide?

[wondervet]

last year we had a horror colony which were unmanageable for us. hundreds of them flying at veil as soon as the crown board was off.

we requeened them successfully late July (checked a month later than replacement queen was present and laying) and then left them reasonably undisturbed through the autumn while the old queen's progeny were replaced.

opened them up this week. all 4 other hives perfect. the formerly horrible lot.........nightmare! Managed to get as far as the dummy board out before engulfed in angry bees.

questions:

1) is this just bad luck? we have a sister queen from another queen cell from the same hive at the same time and her hive is completely reasonably behaved. Is it possible the hive could be full of nosema or something?

2) Can't be done with a season of this. I'm currently thinking next week we'll tape up the hive. Fill it with carbon dioxide from a fire extinguisher and hoover out the inactive bees 10 mins later (and burn 'em). Then at least we can recycle the stores and combs. Anybody who's actually done this have any advice for us? Will the remaining sealed brood survive and if we donate this to a weak hive will it turn the weak hive into another hive from hell?

help!

many thanks in anticipation

WV

 

[Hivemaker.]

Are you certain the queen you saw was the one you introduced,if so then re Queen them again. No need to kill the lot.

 

[wondervet]

yep, definitely her. just bad luck then?

 

[johnandyrob]

Why not get rid of the queen and unite with your weak hive.

 

[Beeforest]

Wondervet, what inspired your forum name?

 

[gavin]

Possibly, but it is also possible that the previous queen's progeny - which would have hatched in August and maybe not had a lot to do since then - is still around. At least enough of them to give you a hard time when you pop the lid.

I'd hesitate. By the time you have queen cells in other colonies in maybe a month to attempt to requeen, you might have lost the nasty ones. Can't guarantee it, mind you. And if not, there is your solution.

G.

 

[susbees]

Can you recall what the brood pattern was like after requeening?

 

[Winker]

A real beekeeper would not kill his bees IMHO.

Move the hive 10 feet and place a new hive on the old location. This will get all the flying bees away from the hive with the queen in it. Wait 24 hours to make sure all the flying bees are in the new hive. Next split the old hive into 2 nucs, while doing this find the nasty queen and kill her. Then introduce 2 new queens to the 2 nucs you made up. 9 weeks after you done that all the old nasty bees will be dead and replaced by your new queens brood.

 

[itma]

I'm thinking of Drones.

1/ Maybe a local (feral?) source of nasty drones ... ?

and 2/ Your hive is about to become another source of nasty drones. In the meanwhile (before another attempt at requeening, or as per Winker's suggestion), would it make any sense to try and get a QX under the BB (so drones can't get out) ???

 

[wondervet]

appreciating the feedback.

the bad lot are by far the strongest in the apiary. They look quite capable of swarming within the next few weeks and I'm concerned that by the time we find out that the problem isn't going to get better they will flood the apiary with bad drones.

(wondervet it was an email address -meant a touch ironically. I am a vet when not struggling with bees. It seemed like a good idea at the time.........)

 

[Hivemaker.]

Even your nice queen of the two will be a source of drones that go directly back to her mother.

 

[wondervet]

crossed posts re drones. good idea that with QE under box.

also liking idea of splitting into 2 (they are currently in double brood so might work nicely)

 

[Busy Bee]

If you split the hive into 2 Nuc's where would it be possible to obtain 2 mated queens in March without using importations?

If the bees are really that bad unite dump them all out on the ground and split the hive up between all the other hives making sure the queen has 1st been dispatched and all the drone brood removed.

Or you could revert to sterner methods and just torch them all. I suggest you think hard about the progency of your other hives as Hivemaker suggested the drones from the other hives could be the root problem.

Do you keep Buckfast bees?


Busy Bee

 

[wondervet]

susbees, she was laying in a nuc for a month or so before being sent in to requeening action and laid up several frames of solid worker brood. can't recall anything unusual about the laying pattern when we confirmed that the re-queening had succeeded.

Haven't seen her at recent inspection, spose they could have superceded her during the autumn or maybe we accidentally squished her.....

 

[wondervet]

queen in question was the daughter of a queen from Leeds Beekeepers breeding program. Mother was fine. Hive was in my garden at the time of daughter's mating and drones were either from same hive or whatever was flying in the area. Certainly the first lot that hatched from her included some very orangey specimens (poss Buckfast genes???).

 

[itma]

Even your nice queen of the two will be a source of drones that go directly back to her mother.

While the drones have just the mother's genes, the two sisters wouldn't necessarily have the same 'father'. So their drones needn't necessarily be equally risky - or have I missed something?

...
Do you keep Buckfast bees?
...

I wondered whether someone locally might, particularly since the nasty hive is numerically stronger than the others in the apiary ...

 

[wondervet]

how about the carbon dioxide? Anybody actually done this?

I know, I know, it may be the duff way out and not decided yet but the apiary is only 100 yds from houses with kids and a prolonged period of grumpy bees could end in homeless bees.

 

[exmoorbee]

A real beekeeper would not kill his bees IMHO.

Move the hive 10 feet and place a new hive on the old location. This will get all the flying bees away from the hive with the queen in it. Wait 24 hours to make sure all the flying bees are in the new hive. Next split the old hive into 2 nucs, while doing this find the nasty queen and kill her. Then introduce 2 new queens to the 2 nucs you made up. 9 weeks after you done that all the old nasty bees will be dead and replaced by your new queens brood.

seems good. I think we are going to be trying this on a simular double brood hive this season.

Out of intrest what happens to the nasty fliers? just disapate when they reliase there is no queen or brood or do the carry on in new hive un till they reach the end of their natural life?

Also after killing the nasty queen could you wait 4 or 5 days for all the eggs to be too old for queen cells then destroy all queen cells and introduce a frame of eggs from a nice hive be introduced to raise emergency cells on, or best to requeen?

 

[John_W]

turn the hive..

Have you explored all the reasons?

Have you tried turning the hive to face a new direction?
I have put the same reply up now six or severn times..I really need to cut and paste it into a document.

Seriously.. yes it could be their genes. But it can also just as easily be their environment. Is the wind blowing into the hive, is there an source of low frequency vibrations near by? Farm machinery/industry etc etc..

I have found, simple turning the hive to face a new direction in some cases can settle a badly tempered colony down. Some colonies like more smoke than others. Sometimes, less. So if you get bad bees, the tendancy is to puff more smoke.

Do you always leave this colony till last? If so, were your gloves covered in pheramones from stings from the other colonies? Is your kit clean? etc.

So many people seem to jump to the conclusion they must re-queen. If this was your first inspection of year.. do you know what exactly was happening in the apiary ten minutes before you arrived.. was a cat stratching on the stand, was a bird dancing on the roof, were kid throwing stones at the hive etc etc.. ??

They certainly could be bad tempered by nature, but they could also just be suffering from something upsetting them.

Seriously try turning the hive one way or the other 90 degrees over a day or two and seeing if they settle.

 

[Hivemaker.]

While the drones have just the mother's genes, the two sisters wouldn't necessarily have the same 'father'.

Yes the two sister queens can have a different father,but the drones they both produce will be much the same as they are not from fertilised eggs.