Aficionados of oxalic sublimation

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Olbe 

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Sublimation or trickle have no where near the efficacy of oxalic and glycerine used in the solid fibre board (as in Aluen CAP) the fibre board strips will give a treatment cycle from 4 to 8 weeks , depending on how fast the bees chew them up, one of the drawbacks of them is that you have to clean the floors a couple times a year as you get a build up of chewed cardboard residue left behind.
Have been using these since 2017 , they are not perfect, but they are easy to manufacture ( DON'T MAKE THEM IN THE KITCHEN ) and they work, but slower than synthetic strips.
I find by doing mite washes every 7 days that mite levels drop approx 50% each week .
 

charlievictorbravo 

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It would be useful if someone could discover how OA actually kills varroa.
This is a pretty fundamental question and one that I have pondered for a couple of years. The best that I could come up with was that the acid crystals burned the soft footpads and/or the mouth parts of the mite and they let go of their host. However, I had an electronic conversation with Dr Sam Ramsey (of the "mites feed on fat body tissue not hemolymph" fame) and he thought that the organ like a snorkel - I forget its name -that the mites use to breath through - think of a mite buried under brood food in a cell - could be burned and rendered unusable by Oxalic Acid thereby suffocating the mite.
To research it, you'd probably need access to electron microscopes but it would be a worthwhile project for a grad student. Any takers?

CVB
 
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Beebe 

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Somehow it's escalated to seven.
This is a Bob Binnie, part 1 of 3, about 7 applications of oxalic acid sublimation 5 days apart. Ongoing research done by the University of Georgia if anyone is interested. Results of first experiment are similar to members of this forum.
Such an excellent discussion by very well informed scientists. I intend to watch parts two and three.
There are so many factual observations about precision use of treatments for maximum effect; it certainly makes me reconsider my approach to varroa control, but also the approach which I constantly see recommended. I hope everyone watches it and it provokes some constructive discussion.
 

charlievictorbravo 

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Such an excellent discussion by very well informed scientists. I intend to watch parts two and three.
There are so many factual observations about precision use of treatments for maximum effect; it certainly makes me reconsider my approach to varroa control, but also the approach which I constantly see recommended. I hope everyone watches it and it provokes some constructive discussion.
I agree - an excellent discussion between informed people. The big takeaways for me were:
  • multiple OA sublimation treatments were not harmful to bees
  • it is ok to use OA sublimation with honey supers in place (which I proved to myself some years ago with some simple GCSE-level mathematics)
  • academia has no idea how OA works
  • the local climate (hot and dry or hot and humid or cool and damp, etc.) is a major factor in the efficacy of some treatments, especially based on essential oils like Thymol
  • if you're going to take part in a videod academic discussion, don't wear a nose ring that looks like a nose-drip - it's very distracting for viewers!
CVB
 

Beebe 

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Somehow it's escalated to seven.
I agree - an excellent discussion between informed people. The big takeaways for me were:
  • multiple OA sublimation treatments were not harmful to bees
  • it is ok to use OA sublimation with honey supers in place (which I proved to myself some years ago with some simple GCSE-level mathematics)
  • academia has no idea how OA works
  • the local climate (hot and dry or hot and humid or cool and damp, etc.) is a major factor in the efficacy of some treatments, especially based on essential oils like Thymol
  • if you're going to take part in a videod academic discussion, don't wear a nose ring that looks like a nose-drip - it's very distracting for viewers!
CVB
At least it distracted a little from the dyed beard. But he's excused...what a precision mind he has.
 

hemo 

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I agree - an excellent discussion between informed people. The big takeaways for me were:
  • multiple OA sublimation treatments were not harmful to bees
  • it is ok to use OA sublimation with honey supers in place (which I proved to myself some years ago with some simple GCSE-level mathematics)
  • academia has no idea how OA works
  • the local climate (hot and dry or hot and humid or cool and damp, etc.) is a major factor in the efficacy of some treatments, especially based on essential oils like Thymol
  • if you're going to take part in a videod academic discussion, don't wear a nose ring that looks like a nose-drip - it's very distracting for viewers!
CVB
The sticking point with point#2 is the EU or UK do not allow this, treatment would be so much easier if they changed their stance.
 

Erichalfbee 

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We are not in the EU.
How many people use Apibioxal too
 

W0otz 

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Third video, 9:07, interesting hypothesis that mites resistant to coumaphos may be more susceptible to other pesticides. I know about rotating treatments to try and prevent resistance buildup in the mite population, but has anyone tried combining treatments at the same time? There's resistance to coumaphos, there's resistance to fluvalinate, but what if you treat with both simultaneously? What about combining coumaphos with amitraz where amitraz resistance is starting to appear?
 

Erichalfbee 

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The sticking point with point#2 is the EU or UK do not allow this, treatment would be so much easier if they changed their stance.
Hugely valid point. It’s one we discuss every year unfortunately. Where is the b b k a fighting our corner
 
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Erichalfbee 

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What about combining coumaphos with amitraz where amitraz resistance is starting to appear?
Only if they work together
But if I have to put anything into my hives I would rather add something that is known to work and is a normal constituent of honey
 

W0otz 

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Only if they work together
But if I have to put anything into my hives I would rather add something that is known to work and is a normal constituent of honey
I agree, I'm treating with MAQS now and I've got a gasvap on order.
It's always good to have options available though and I was just wondering whether the now-ineffective treatments could still serve a purpose.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Hugely valid point. It’s one we discuss every year unfortunately. Where is the b b k a fighting our corner
They're too bust tilting at windmills, it's either imports or the snowball's hope in hell of making bee equipment VAT free.
 

Wilco 

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Third video, 9:07, interesting hypothesis that mites resistant to coumaphos may be more susceptible to other pesticides. I know about rotating treatments to try and prevent resistance buildup in the mite population, but has anyone tried combining treatments at the same time? There's resistance to coumaphos, there's resistance to fluvalinate, but what if you treat with both simultaneously? What about combining coumaphos with amitraz where amitraz resistance is starting to appear?
Ultimately this just selects for multiresistance. If resistance genes are present it's only a matter of time before you get multiresistance anyway.
 

Wilco 

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They're too bust tilting at windmills, it's either imports or the snowball's hope in hell of making bee equipment VAT free.
Surely they can just advise members how to get VAT registered for the latter?
 

Ian123 

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Why are we always so far behind?
I see they were pretty dismissive of essential oil products like thymol yet Apiguard et al have been a mainstay of varroa treatment in the uk for years
There was also a real craze for fogging with essential oils. Rather like an oil sugar dust!
 
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Erichalfbee 

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Just FYI thymol used as apiguard is not the same as it’s use as an essential oil. There was a craze for a while of fogging with oils.
Ah that’s what he meant. I wondered why they were so against it. Is apiguard not available in the States.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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Too many - but not nearly enough
Ah that’s what he meant. I wondered why they were so against it. Is apiguard not available in the States.
For some reason, a lot of them over there still seem to think that no Varroa treatments have been discovered/invented yet.
 

Ian123 

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Ah that’s what he meant. I wondered why they were so against it. Is apiguard not available in the States.
I think they did mention apiguard, and said it was variable with colonies absconding. Don’t forget they have higher temps. In the early days of apiguard I put half treatments as recommended into Nucs and had a number leave, Particularly in poly Nucs. Just to point out if any suggest at that time there weren’t any bs polys available, I made them out of converted Lang poly Nucs. I asked at Thornes what the most popular treatments sold they thought 50/50 strips to apiguard. I’d suggest most commercial are way more into strip treatments.
 
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