A/S without finding the queen?

[sharonh]

Hi everyone,
Looking for some advice on a colony, currently brood and half, with half on bottom.
Un-clipped, unmarked Queen and very elusive.
Last inspection Thursday May 15th showed very full brood box with play cups here and there.
Upon advice from Finman then, i ordered some new equipment in order to give more space, put them in a double brood. advice was also to put the half brood above the q excluder , so once all brood hatched out, they could clean out and use.
Equipment was due to be here today, but was rang to say it will be tomorrow. I still carried out my inspection today as was due.
Different situation so need some advice.
Still full with bees, but now with charged Queen cells,two together in the center of a frame, one being extended down, also others on the bottom of some other frames, charged but not being extended yet.
Upon further inspection, one frame seems to have drone brood in worker cells.
My guess from the pattern, is that this queen may be running out, and that the bees must be replacing her.
What to do now?
How do i do A/S without finding the queen. The equipment will be here tomorrow. What ill have available to me, is poly nuc 6 frame, and a spare national hive.
I haven't destroyed any q cells, but want to know my options now.
Don't want to lose my bees to swarming.
Other question, if Queen is running out, will these q cells be fertile & even produce new queens. I have an other colony to steal some eggs from if need be.
So has anyone had any experiences with this kind of situation, and what did you do?
My next move has to be soon, so am on red alert.
Please share your ideas. Thanks in advance.

Sharon

 

[alldigging]

The is a fera leaflet on this topic.

 

[richardbees]

See if you can take any ideas from the attached, meanwhile keep pinching out Q cells .

 

[JohnRoss]

If you are really desperate, split in 4, in three days you will know which of the four she is in by the eggs. Unite the other three and AS. then search the fourth, if you still cant find her in the fourth split again.

PS election posters can be made into useable nuc boxes for this type of thing.

 

[oliver90owner]

Unite the other three and AS.

I like your style, but do tell us: How would you A/S that part if there is no queen there to artificially swarm?

 

[JohnRoss]

I kind of typed that on the hoof I should have read over that, the AS is a mistake.

I suppose you split the one with the queen again and the following day look to see which has eggs that weren't there yesterday, then you would have her on two frames. Place the two frames that contain the queen in a BB with fresh foundation and move all other united parts to another part of the apiary. Provided all previous splits have been carried out and nucs left within 3m all the flying bees will return to your BB with fresh foundation and two frames of brood with the queen.

You may loose a swarm but it will be much smaller and in those two manipulations you are also very likely to see the Queen as the search has been narrowed down so far.

As I said before this is only for the desperate.

 

[sharonh]

See if you can take any ideas from the attached, meanwhile keep pinching out Q cells .

Thanks Richardbees.
Printed that out, only problem is one of the items required is a ventilated board ( horsley board )or similar, which i don't have. I wont have time to get one at this stage as this needs attention asap.
Sharon

 

[sharonh]

Thanks JohnRoss.
See where your going but i really don't want a load of splits. Wouldn't have the equipment for it anyway. Want to try and keep my flying bees with the supers as they are doing great. I will only have a second national to work with. Keeping the poly nuc as a standby for emergencies.
Sharon

 

[richardbees]

Sharon,
....if you are sure ALL of the bees were in the lower boxB, you can remove and put boxA on it's own floor alongside.

If you're having a problem finding the Q - try moving the bb onto a temp floor 8ft away and put an empty box in it's place. Then look for the queen (preferably without smoke) in the bb an hour later....she'll be MUCH easier to find, probably near to where you laqst saw eggs/grubs, as half the bees will be milling around the original site.

good luck!

richard

 

[sharonh]

The is a fera leaflet on this topic.

Thanks alldigging,
Will look that one up tonight.
Sharon

 

[sharonh]

Sharon,
....if you are sure ALL of the bees were in the lower boxB, you can remove and put boxA on it's own floor alongside.

If you're having a problem finding the Q - try moving the bb onto a temp floor 8ft away and put an empty box in it's place. Then look for the queen (preferably without smoke) in the bb an hour later....she'll be MUCH easier to find, probably near to where you laqst saw eggs/grubs, as half the bees will be milling around the original site.

good luck!

richard

Thanks Richard.
Weather and time is again me. Think she is running out of steam and that they are trying to replace her. If can do what i can without finding her, all the better. Alot of lifting and dragging for me. they are brood and half with two supers. Wish i had someone to help me.
My association is a 40 minute drive,so cant expect anyone to travel just to give me a hand.
Thanks again
Sharon

 

[drex]

See if you can take any ideas from the attached, meanwhile keep pinching out Q cells .

Follow it to end of step 5 . Top box will have brood and nurses. HM will be in bottom. Instead of putting in Horsley board just split the colony. Frame of brood and nurses popped into bottom box will hold the queen there. Bees will get feisty during brushing and shaking.

 

[sharonh]

Follow it to end of step 5 . Top box will have brood and nurses. HM will be in bottom. Instead of putting in Horsley board just split the colony. Frame of brood and nurses popped into bottom box will hold the queen there. Bees will get feisty during brushing and shaking.

Thanks drex,
I know they won't like it. If weather was better, and flying bees out foraging, it would make it a touch easier to do.
They next thing I need to keep an eye on is, if the queen is running low & starting to lay drones, will these q cells be any good or just have drone larva in them.
Will need to keep my calculations & give a frame of eggs if needs be.
Equipment arrives today so will have to have my plan in place & get on with doing what I need to do.
Regards
Sharon



Love Beekeeping <3

 

[biglongdarren]

this might have been worth a go?? copied from the welsh beekeepers' website.
Snelgrove II – Modified version
The sequence of manipulations is shown in Figure 3:-
a) The hive is dismantled as if for an artificial swarm; with the brood and supers in two stacks.
b) A new deep box of combs is placed on the old floor - preferably drawn combs but it can contain some foundation.
c) Two brood frames complete with nurse bees and containing at least some eggs and young larvae are placed in
the centre of the new box. These frames must be carefully checked to see that the queen is not on
them. Any existing queen cells on these frames must also be destroyed.
d) A queen excluder is placed on the new box and the supers added.e) All the remaining brood (in the original box or boxes) is placed on a SB on top of the hive. This part (the parent
colony) contains all but two frames of the brood, all the queen cells and, most importantly, the queen. The two
missing frames can be replaced with drawn comb or foundation.
f) The only precaution is that no mature queen cells should be present in the parent colony on the SB. Snelgrove
actually recommends `no sealed queen cells` but, as long as they are all newly sealed, all will be well.
(Logically, unless the weather has been bad for several days, so that swarming has been delayed, there are
unlikely to be any mature queen cells present.) However, if in doubt about the maturity of the queen cells,
destroy the sealed ones.
g) A door on the SB is opened to let the bees in the parent colony fly and existing fliers will return to the bottom of
the hive.
h) After 4-5 days the usual double door change can be done to divert more flying bees to the artificial swarm.
i) After 7-10 days you enter the second phase in the operation. The parent colony on the SB is examined and all
queen cells should have been torn down and the queen should have resumed laying.
j) The second phase must not be delayed beyond day 11 or there is a possibility that one of the emergency queen
cells may have emerged and there will be a virgin queen on the loose in the artificial swarm at the bottom.
k) Now you have to do a double frame swop; the queen and the frame she is on and one other frame of brood from
the top box are transferred to the bottom box (placed in the middle), and the two frames of brood that were put
in the bottom during the initial operation – which will now have queen cells on them – are transferred to the
middle of the top box.
The bottom box, now re-united with the old queen, should settle down to re-build – and there is a good chance that it will – and
the top of the hive on the SB will select an emerging queen, destroy all others and get the chosen one mated. The method is
easier than conventional artificial swarming because the queen does not have to be found during the initial split. She only has
NOT to be on the two frames that go in the bottom box with the artificial swarm. Finding the queen later on the SB is easier
because there is a reduced number of bees and she has also resumed laying and will be much less mobile than in a pre-swarming
colony – where queens are always more difficult to find.If for any reason you miss the 11 day limit for the second phase and find that queen cells have emerged in the bottom box, you
are trapped in that situation – but it is not a complete disaster! If there are still sealed queen cells, open at least one or two and
let any mature queens walk out into the hive. When you are satisfied that there is a least one healthy virgin queen in the bottom
box, destroy all the remaining queen cells The artificial swarm should now settle down to select a queen, get her mated and
should not attempt to swarm. Meanwhile, the colony on the SB will be forging ahead under the old queen and has now become
the main honey producing unit. It will soon need a queen excluder and some supers. These can be moved up from the lower part
of the hive where the honey producing potential is reduced. If you have really blown it, and not done the second phase until day
16 or later, then there is a good chance that the bottom part of the hive has already swarmed – but it will be difficult to tell for
sure. There is not much you can do about this but you can be fairly sure that it will not swarm for a second time. Learn the lesson
and resolve to do better next time!

 

[bignikki]

this might have been worth a go?? copied from the welsh beekeepers' website.
Snelgrove II – Modified version
The sequence of manipulations is shown in Figure 3:-
a) The hive is dismantled as if for an artificial swarm; with the brood and supers in two stacks.
b) A new deep box of combs is placed on the old floor - preferably drawn combs but it can contain some foundation.
c) Two brood frames complete with nurse bees and containing at least some eggs and young larvae are placed in
the centre of the new box. These frames must be carefully checked to see that the queen is not on
them. Any existing queen cells on these frames must also be destroyed.
d) A queen excluder is placed on the new box and the supers added.e) All the remaining brood (in the original box or boxes) is placed on a SB on top of the hive. This part (the parent
colony) contains all but two frames of the brood, all the queen cells and, most importantly, the queen. The two
missing frames can be replaced with drawn comb or foundation.
f) The only precaution is that no mature queen cells should be present in the parent colony on the SB. Snelgrove
actually recommends `no sealed queen cells` but, as long as they are all newly sealed, all will be well.
(Logically, unless the weather has been bad for several days, so that swarming has been delayed, there are
unlikely to be any mature queen cells present.) However, if in doubt about the maturity of the queen cells,
destroy the sealed ones.
g) A door on the SB is opened to let the bees in the parent colony fly and existing fliers will return to the bottom of
the hive.
h) After 4-5 days the usual double door change can be done to divert more flying bees to the artificial swarm.
i) After 7-10 days you enter the second phase in the operation. The parent colony on the SB is examined and all
queen cells should have been torn down and the queen should have resumed laying.
j) The second phase must not be delayed beyond day 11 or there is a possibility that one of the emergency queen
cells may have emerged and there will be a virgin queen on the loose in the artificial swarm at the bottom.
k) Now you have to do a double frame swop; the queen and the frame she is on and one other frame of brood from
the top box are transferred to the bottom box (placed in the middle), and the two frames of brood that were put
in the bottom during the initial operation – which will now have queen cells on them – are transferred to the
middle of the top box.
The bottom box, now re-united with the old queen, should settle down to re-build – and there is a good chance that it will – and
the top of the hive on the SB will select an emerging queen, destroy all others and get the chosen one mated. The method is
easier than conventional artificial swarming because the queen does not have to be found during the initial split. She only has
NOT to be on the two frames that go in the bottom box with the artificial swarm. Finding the queen later on the SB is easier
because there is a reduced number of bees and she has also resumed laying and will be much less mobile than in a pre-swarming
colony – where queens are always more difficult to find.If for any reason you miss the 11 day limit for the second phase and find that queen cells have emerged in the bottom box, you
are trapped in that situation – but it is not a complete disaster! If there are still sealed queen cells, open at least one or two and
let any mature queens walk out into the hive. When you are satisfied that there is a least one healthy virgin queen in the bottom
box, destroy all the remaining queen cells The artificial swarm should now settle down to select a queen, get her mated and
should not attempt to swarm. Meanwhile, the colony on the SB will be forging ahead under the old queen and has now become
the main honey producing unit. It will soon need a queen excluder and some supers. These can be moved up from the lower part
of the hive where the honey producing potential is reduced. If you have really blown it, and not done the second phase until day
16 or later, then there is a good chance that the bottom part of the hive has already swarmed – but it will be difficult to tell for
sure. There is not much you can do about this but you can be fairly sure that it will not swarm for a second time. Learn the lesson
and resolve to do better next time!

If you take the above method but approach it differently.
Put 2 frames of brood with eggs in a new brood box with empty frames,on origional site.
Move parent colony to new position at least 3 feet away. Job done!
Correct me if I'm wrong.