A Mess!

[Cyfareddol]

I have been helping a beekeeper more novice than myself.
He was given a wooden National hive with a small swarm resident and only five frames in total. He put the hive on the roof of a shed where access was difficult and involved a ladder. I asked him to fill the void with frames but he didn’t. There is now a mass of brace comb filling half the box and not a lot happening in the rest.

Is the best solution to combine with another colony with two Queens initially, bearing in mind that it will be difficult to ensure that there’s a Queen left alive? If both queens are killed its now too late to requeeen.
Would the problem be better left until spring and what is the favourite solution?

 

[beeno]

I have been helping a beekeeper more novice than myself.
He was given a wooden National hive with a small swarm resident and only five frames in total. He put the hive on the roof of a shed where access was difficult and involved a ladder. I asked him to fill the void with frames but he didn’t. There is now a mass of brace comb filling half the box and not a lot happening in the rest.

Is the best solution to combine with another colony with two Queens initially, bearing in mind that it will be difficult to ensure that there’s a Queen left alive? If both queens are killed its now too late to requeeen.
Would the problem be better left until spring and what is the favourite solution?

Two queens unrelated i.e. not from supersedure will fight or the workers will kill one or they will not unite and fight! IMHO you have to bite the bullet and tidy up the brace comb, see what you have got and dummy down with kingspan or into nuc or unite if it turns out to be -Q.

 

[GuyNir]

Two queens unrelated i.e. not from supersedure will fight or the workers will kill one or they will not unite and fight! IMHO you have to bite the bullet and tidy up the brace comb, see what you have got and dummy down with kingspan or into nuc or unite if it turns out to be -Q.

Agree. have your friend do it. He won’t be leaving empty spaces after.

 

[Swarm]

I'll be blunt because some of the stories I hear make me despair.
Best course of action would be to arrange for an experienced beekeeper to come and remove them.
This friend of yours has no idea and doesn't take advice, better still wants you to help after ignoring you in the first place.
How are they inspected? From a ladder or is that just for access? If for access, how sturdy is the roof? Does he have any idea how heavy a hive can become?
Doing anything to try and sort out their comb now would just be cruel.
If he still wants to keep bees, tell him to do some reading over Winter as covid is going to make courses difficult for a while. Basic reading would have helped enormously here.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Agree with Swarm. Trying to teach the guy a lesson by making him do any remedial work comes at a cost to the bees. They need to be removed and Baileyed into a new box in the spring. I would OAV and feed, and fix things next year if they survive.
We have a colony on the potting shed roof. It was a stupid thing to do leaving them in the bait hive. But we are both experienced beekeepers and Stan is happy tending to them there.
They WILL be moved in spring!

 

[GuyNir]

Or you can do it for him, then come back next year again.

 

[Murox]

Follow Erichalfbee's suggestion " ................any remedial work comes at a cost to the bees. They need to be removed (and Baileyed) into a new box in the spring. I would OAV (treat for varroa) and feed, and fix things next year if they survive.........."
and heed or better still let your friend read the comments of Swarm's.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Two queens unrelated i.e. not from supersedure will fight or the workers will kill one or they will not unite and fight! .

Not necessarily got two united colonies in one apiary which (for reasons it doesn't matter) now has two totally unrelated queens working in the same hive. No fighting whatsoever

Agree with Swarm. Trying to teach the guy a lesson by making him do any remedial work comes at a cost to the bees. They need to be removed and Baileyed into a new box in the spring. I would OAV and feed, and fix things next year if they survive.

it's a mess, and doing anything now would be a even messier.

 

[Cyfareddol]

I'll be blunt because some of the stories I hear make me despair.
Best course of action would be to arrange for an experienced beekeeper to come and remove them.
This friend of yours has no idea and doesn't take advice, better still wants you to help after ignoring you in the first place.
How are they inspected? From a ladder or is that just for access? If for access, how sturdy is the roof? Does he have any idea how heavy a hive can become?
Doing anything to try and sort out their comb now would just be cruel.
If he still wants to keep bees, tell him to do some reading over Winter as covid is going to make courses difficult for a while. Basic reading would have helped enormously here.

So much conjecture! Perhaps he just forgot!
Asking for advice is not an indication of incompetence or stupidity.
I’ll be blunt too. Your reply is rude and unhelpful.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not necessarily got two united colonies in one apiary which (for reasons it doesn't matter) now has two totally unrelated queens working in the same hive. No fighting whatsoever

Yes but don’t tell cyfareddol

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes b
Yes but don’t tell cyfareddol

 

[GuyNir]

If the messy part is either empty or stores, might be better to do it now. Weather is still looking OK for the next few weeks. Come spring, it might get filled quickly with brood.
if that’s the case, moving the frames into a nuc, removing the messy comb and giving them the honey back (+ feed as needed) Might not be a bad idea.
In any case, if your friend is serious about keeping bees, I’d let them sort it out (with guidance).
Tough lessons are necessary sometimes.
I know you get different advice from different people, but that’s OK on a forum. Do what you believe is right.

 

[beeno]

"... not happening a lot in the rest" seems to me to indicate the "colony" may not last until spring. It could, of course, be left to die out and spread disease, as it probably have not been looked at since it was put up there.

 

[beeno]

Jenkins, to unrelated queens, an exception rather than the rule I would suggest.

 

[Ian123]

The situation would be easy to resolve in the spring simply add another brood on top and wait for the queen to move up. Then just slide an excluder between the 2 boxes. If the colony is only small you could try now, lift the frames with luck most the brood/bees will be on the frames and the queen ,remove these and any cut out will be a lot easier. Replace these on the roof to collect flyers whilst you deal with anything worth saving at ground level.

 

[pargyle]

Maybe to the point but not rude ... good advice from swarm ...it's too late now to mess with them. Get them down off the roof to somewhere more sheltered... make sure they are well fed for winter. Show your friend the error of his ways (you can decide how to the point you want to be) and be prepared to assist in the spring when you will have to cut the free comb out. If you are feeling kind buy him a copy or lend him one if you have it ... of bees at the bottom of the garden - it might help him to decide whether he wants to be a beekeeper or not.

 

[BugsInABox]

This friend of yours has no idea and doesn't take advice, better still wants you to help after ignoring you in the first place.

A bit rude really.

 

[pargyle]

But it's correct ? Just to the point IMO ...

 

[Madge]

If the brace comb is filled with honey rather than brood, then it's not too late to sort out the mess. The colony will then be in a better situation (being in a smaller, dummied-down hive or a nucleus) to survive the winter. If the brace comb is filled with brood, then it will be difficult to sort out. In that case, it's probably best to get the hive down from the roof, provide them with insulation above their heads, feed them, and sort it all out in spring.

 

[Cyfareddol]

If the brace comb is filled with honey rather than brood, then it's not too late to sort out the mess. The colony will then be in a better situation (being in a smaller, dummied-down hive or a nucleus) to survive the winter. If the brace comb is filled with brood, then it will be difficult to sort out. In that case, it's probably best to get the hive down from the roof, provide them with insulation above their heads, feed them, and sort it all out in spring.

The situation would be easy to resolve in the spring simply add another brood on top and wait for the queen to move up. Then just slide an excluder between the 2 boxes. If the colony is only small you could try now, lift the frames with luck most the brood/bees will be on the frames and the queen ,remove these and any cut out will be a lot easier. Replace these on the roof to collect flyers whilst you deal with anything worth saving at ground level.

Thank you for a helpful reply. What follows below is not for you or those who offered advice on the problem. It’s here because I cant find anywhere else to put it.

I said the beehive was put on a shed roof and the missing frames not inserted. It came to my apiary for most of last winter and went back to a ground level site. I didn‘t say it was left on the roof.
Because of the mass of comb it was not possible to inspect more than a few frames and I couldn’t work out how best to remove the comb and preserve the colony which is probably from wild stock. The workers are small and black,possibly wild Black Welsh Bees. It’s a difficult place to keep bees, high up, exposed and in conifer forest so these bees could be locally adapted.
I’ve kept bees for over twenty years, now have seven colonies. I have good years and poor, again in a difficult very exposed site. I don’t treat for varroa and had an NBU inspection this year. Inspector found little varroa and the bees are healthy. I haven’t had any winter losses for nine years but wasps were a serious problem, now resolved.
My friend is a member of the local association and has completed an initial training course. He also understand weight, ladders and the capacity of supporting structures.
I am not an idiot either. I asked for advice on dealing with a particular problem, not about ladders ,shed roofs, or how not to deal with people who make mistakes. I have some ideas for a solution but I have often found that others can have better ideas.