A little help on frames

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psafloyd 

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I'm trying to get my head straight on frames so I may put in an order next week.

I have now worked out that the frames I want for a national brood box are DN5s, which are self spacing.

I have since discovered a load of super frames I have are not Manleys but SN1s. I believe these are NOT self-spacing, hence their use with castellations.

Now, I have read much about the superiority of Manleys in national supers and I am sure people will have their opinions, but I'm not interested in that.

My question is, are Manleys and SN1 frames interchangable? They seem to be very similar, but want to be sure and all these dimensions are now swimming before my eyes.

Many thanks.

:bigear:
 

MuswellMetro 

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I'm trying to get my head straight on frames so I may put in an order next week.

I have now worked out that the frames I want for a national brood box are DN5s, which are self spacing.

I have since discovered a load of super frames I have are not Manleys but SN1s. I believe these are NOT self-spacing, hence their use with castellations.

Now, I have read much about the superiority of Manleys in national supers and I am sure people will have their opinions, but I'm not interested in that.

My question is, are Manleys and SN1 frames interchangable? They seem to be very similar, but want to be sure and all these dimensions are now swimming before my eyes.

Many thanks.

:bigear:
if you use SN1 they are not self spacing so you need either narrow 37mm spaciers or wide 44mm spacers end on, or wide spacers at 37mm staggered

manleys are 42 or 44mm spacing so you can mix them with 44mm SN1 with wide spacers and get the same spacing of 9x44= 396mm [a hive is 422-424mm wide]

but it will mean more brace comb

i use sn1 on wides but to get them to draw nice comb i use them stagger for 11 frames at 37mm and remove some and gradual go to 9 frames at 44mm once they have drawn for honey, but isave my comb so the staggering of spacer is only with fresh foundation

see http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5601&highlight=staggered+wide
 
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psafloyd 

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Thanks for your input, Muswell. I wasn't planning on using spacers as I was going to I have castellations to fit to my super.

From your link, it looks as though Manleys will fit in such a structure.
 

MuswellMetro 

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I'm trying to get my head straight on frames so I may put in an order next week.

I have now worked out that the frames I want for a national brood box are DN5s, which are self spacing.

I have since discovered a load of super frames I have are not Manleys but SN1s. I believe these are NOT self-spacing, hence their use with castellations.

Now, I have read much about the superiority of Manleys in national supers and I am sure people will have their opinions, but I'm not interested in that.

My question is, are Manleys and SN1 frames interchangable? They seem to be very similar, but want to be sure and all these dimensions are now swimming before my eyes.

Many thanks.

:bigear:
if you use SN1 they are not self spacing so you need either narrow 37mm spacing of wide 44mm spaceing end on, or 37mm staggered

manleys are 42 or 44mm spacing so you can mix them with 44mm sni spacers and get the same spacing of 9x44= 396mm [a hive is 422-424mm wide]

but it will mean more brace comb

i use sn1 on wides and to get them to draw nice comb i use them stagger for 11 frames at 37mm and remove some and gradual go to 9 frames at 44mm once they have drawn for honey, but isave my comb so the staggering of spacer is only with fresh foundation

see http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5601&highlight=staggered+wide
 

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Is there any benefit of DN5 over DN4 ?
 
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Is there any benefit of DN5 over DN4 ?
just opened an enail from th**rnz

DN4s are cheaper than DN5s

almost makes you think TOP BAR !!!

in fact for some reason I am missing about 100 new DN4 /SN4 top bars for frames..... think someone thought they were ideal fire kindling !!
 

MuswellMetro 

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Thanks for your input, Muswell. I wasn't planning on using spacers as I was going to I have castellations to fit to my super.

From your link, it looks as though Manleys will fit in such a structure.
i dont like castles, it can be quite difficult to force frames in, but at 10 spacing

castles are not designed for manley which are self spacing

you may just about fit 42mm manleys ( £hornes) but some which are 44 would not fit , if you castles are not exactly square cut or wrongly located then you could be very tight 10x 42=420 in 422/424 wide, 2mm or 4mm clearance diveded by 11 is very tight ( wet wood, propolis, and wax build up)

so others will need to answer whether 10 manley fit in 10 castles

As my prevoius thread, i prefer spacers and staggered to start with one SN1 frame without spacers as a dummy to remove first if my bees proplis everything up

i have metal spacers at 44 and plastic at 46
 
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BKF Admin 

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Nice thing with plastic spacers is you can start with them stagered to get the bees drawing the foundation in a smaller space and then space them out once the combs are started.
 

nonstandard 

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Another frame question

Sorry psafloyd I don't want to hijack the thread but I too am looking at ordering my frames on Monday at 9am.

I was wondering what the expected lifespan of a super frame is, I know brood frames are now expected to be replaced at three years, but wasn't sure about supers.

My reason for asking was that I was looking at the plastic super frames and have calculated that the initial outlay is three times that of th****s sale seconds. I know the plastic frames will eventually fail but will they outlast three wooden super frames or am I just paying for ease of use and a minimal saving on using unwired wax?
 

MuswellMetro 

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Sorry psafloyd I don't want to hijack the thread but I too am looking at ordering my frames on Monday at 9am.

I was wondering what the expected lifespan of a super frame is, I know brood frames are now expected to be replaced at three years, but wasn't sure about supers.

My reason for asking was that I was looking at the plastic super frames and have calculated that the initial outlay is three times that of th****s sale seconds. I know the plastic frames will eventually fail but will they outlast three wooden super frames or am I just paying for ease of use and a minimal saving on using unwired wax?
depends how mean you are, i throw the wax away after four years and reuse frames having boiled them is soda but often buy new bars to fix the foundation from £hornes of windsor

so mine are going onto year six and i have lost less than 2% through warping or splits though ihave cut a few in half with over enthusiasm with the a carving knife as an upcapping knife
 

Hombre 

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Psafloyd, DN5 has a 28mm top bar (T2), that's an extra 6mm width on the top bars compared to DN4 22mm top bar (T1), which allegedly attract brace comb.

Check out this table on Dave Cushman's site.
 

nonstandard 

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depends how mean you are......
Thrift is my middle name :) I'm actually on quite a tight budget with a young family etc.

I have three good s/h hives bought for under £80 and converted to 14 x 12 and OMF's with scrap wood and have just bought a WBC outer for £12 and inners for £25 from e**y which I am in the middle of refurbishing.

From your comments I think I'll stick with wood, If they did a 14 x 12 plastic brood frame I might be tempted though.
 

MuswellMetro 

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Thrift is my middle name :) I'm actually on quite a tight budget with a young family etc.

I have three good s/h hives bought for under £80 and converted to 14 x 12 and OMF's with scrap wood and have just bought a WBC outer for £12 and inners for £25 from e**y which I am in the middle of refurbishing.

From your comments I think I'll stick with wood, If they did a 14 x 12 plastic brood frame I might be tempted though.
shhhh, dont tell the wife but i clean my old frames in the dishwasher on hot wash with two cups of soda
 

dickbowyer 

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It says in Ted Hooper's book that Manley frames can only be used in a radial, not tangential extractor but never says why. Presume as it is the "bible" must be correct but puzzled as to why? Secondly, are the Manley frames self spacing or do they need spacers? - sorry for hijack of thread! My first year I used SN4 with foundation to draw and then put them in super with 10 spaced castellations.
 

Poly Hive 

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Hooper is not entirely right on this point.

I have extracted heather for years out of Manleys. I rest my case. :)

I have used both tangential exytractors and a swing basket machine.

However.........my combs were both wired from the foundation maker and wired by myself, two lines of monel wire.

There is a higher risk of Manleys breaking, that is the comb breaking, in a tangential extractor as there is a gap between the comb and the mesh of the extractor. That allows the comb to bend as the speed increases on the first run, when the honey on the inner side of the extractor is trying to push through the mid rib to get out. If the first run is managed gently, as it should be then this is not a serious issue, but if you are rough and impatient then you will blow out a lot of combs.

One way round this issue is to mod the extractor to allow one of the sides to slip through, cut a slot, and them much more of the comb surface is supported.

If you have never extracted this will not make much sense no doubt but if you have it should....LOL

PH
 

johna 

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DN4's in the brood box as these are self spacing.You CAN get 12 in a National brood box but they will be tight - better to use 11 with a follower board.Manley frames in super only with wide top and bottom bars to aid uncapping.The disadvantage of Manleys is that the bees will propolise the frames together due to the long flat side bar edges being in contact full length.Dont use Manleys with castellated spacers or EVERYTHING will get propolised into one solid mass.
 

Black Comb 

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I see Thornes standard national kit comes with castellations in the supers
 

george 

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It comes with castellations with the kit but you dont have to fit them . If you want to self space just turn it up t'other way . (Unless , of course you have had them assembled) .
 

psafloyd 

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shhhh, dont tell the wife but i clean my old frames in the dishwasher on hot wash with two cups of soda
Interesting idea. I take it the soda doesn't damage the seals?
 

peterbees 

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Wooden super frames will last 20 years plus if looked after. I write the date when fitted on the top bar, eg 987 is September 1987. I replace super foundation as required, usually after pressing out heather honey. I boil the frames in a Burco boiler of hot water, without using washing soda, and they come out like new.
PM me for pics of my frame boiling setup.
I replace old brood combs every three years and use the old frame and comb to light the wood burner, which I'm just about to do.
Boxes of old brood combs just attract vermin: wax moths, mice, rats even.
 

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