A bit more improvement needed.

[Curly green finger's]

I'm finding that 50% of our first cross stock is having to be culled I'm hoping that the more purer stock I bring in and keeping the best of the rest is going to improve my stock what are your thoughts.
Thanks
Mark

 

[Murox]

That seems like a high percentage to cull - what are your "improvement" goals and criteria for culling ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes why are you culling? Isn’t it a bit early in the season to be making that sort of decision? And what “purer” stock do you have your eye on?

 

[mbc]

I'm finding that 50% of our first cross stock is having to be culled I'm hoping that the more purer stock I bring in and keeping the best of the rest is going to improve my stock what are your thoughts.
Thanks
Mark

Have you seen Joe Widdicome present about his Cornish Amm breeding?
He hatches his virgins in an incubator and culls many on appearance before mating them, might save effort down the line.
Personally I tend not to cull on appearance, just performance, but if they're unsuitable as drone mothers or breeding stock they get moved to apiaries far away from any mating sites as production queens.

 

[Ian123]

When you say first cross stock what are you rearing from. Are the breeders just selected from your general hives or have you purchased in breeders. If your rearing from a Heinz 57 then that percentage may not be out, if your rearing from a pure/line bred bee that’s not normal imo

 

[Curly green finger's]

Dani you are right really I will give them more of a chance even do what mbc has said.
So they are f2 reared from open mated f1 stock amm plus we have Italian mongrels which are our original bees from 2016.

 

[Repwoc]

Dani you are right really I will give them more of a chance even do what mbc has said.
So they are f2 reared from open mated f1 stock amm plus we have Italian mongrels which are our original bees from 2016.

Are you aiming to end up with AMM or AML?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Amms eventually.

 

[Ian123]

Who did you get your f1amm from do they use ii. In truth by the time you are that far down the line they’ll be a mix to 1 degree or another. Huge variation in quality is 1 reason I left Heinz 57 behind, the number of times you ended up with a queen better or as good are few and far between, you often got some good/ok but very often they ended up average! I started with local mongrels and have had other supposed selected local types from a guy involved in Sussex, none proved reliable in what they produced. The biggest issue is your not really aware what you have until there well established. Ian

 

[Curly green finger's]

Who did you get your f1amm from do they use ii. In truth by the time you are that far down the line they’ll be a mix to 1 degree or another. Huge variation in quality is 1 reason I left Heinz 57 behind, the number of times you ended up with a queen better or as good are few and far between, you often got some good/ok but very often they ended up average! I started with local mongrels and have had other supposed selected local types from a guy involved in Sussex, none proved reliable in what they produced. The biggest issue is your not really aware what you have until there well established. Ian

I know what you mean about lineage but there is something about using local stock, bees that have lived in an area for 5 years or so I've selected the best from the original colonys trying to mix the frugelness of Welsh amms with our locals.

 

[BugsInABox]

What is the categoristic your culling because of? Temperament?

 

[Curly green finger's]

What is the categoristic your culling because of? Temperament?

Mainly yes something that is probably one of the hardest traits to assess.

 

[Apiarist]

When I have heard beekeepers talk of the "Temperament" of their bees they are usually referring to the Aggression / Docileness levels; I'm assuming that is NOT what you are referring to here... because Aggressiveness (or lack of) is the easiest trait to assess for.

 

[jeff33]

It will probably be challenging to try and improve all traits at once, unless as Ian says you breed from F0 which will provide a certain level of certainty. All Amms stock for sale in UK and Ireland are F1s so you are already pushing your luck with open mated F2s which will not show their true colour until they're fully established.
In my neck of the woods with beeks keeping unmanaged mongrels, I would say 30-35% will be culled for aggressiveness.

 

[Ian123]

When I have heard beekeepers talk of the "Temperament" of their bees they are usually referring to the Aggression / Docileness levels; I'm assuming that is NOT what you are referring to here... because Aggressiveness (or lack of) is the easiest trait to assess for.

Not so easy when your running unless that’s your yard stick

 

[Swarm]

When were they reared? If last year, too early unless these colonies are boiling over and stinging en mass. If that's the case just nip and unite. If 2019, you have had a year to assess good or bad so if you feel their temperament doesn't meet criteria, nip and unite.
How many queens are you rearing from and have they proven their worth over at least two seasons? One season really isn't enough IMO but I will make exceptions. In the case where the queen has proved exceptional for two or three seasons and her daughters and grand daughters are following suit, I would have no problem with using the youngest. We have three queens who fit this category with up to four generations of offspring queens. Two of these fourth generation queens are on the cards as possibilities this year. One of them was the result of an apiary vicinty mating at the end of August last year. Queen seen and BIAS on September 15th, they are looking well and still have stores, gorgeous little black bees.
I'm hoping the old girls are still around, especially 'Lagertha'. She was the first to reach 'exceptional' status and has maintained those high marks, producing over a hundred pounds of honey last year in her fourth season and a colony that never seems to stop flying.
I will shed a tear when she goes

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm hoping the old girls are still around, especially 'Lagertha'. She was the first to reach 'exceptional' status and has maintained those high marks, producing over a hundred pounds of honey last year in her fourth season and a colony that never seems to stop flying.
I will shed a tear when she goes

Is she yours or from Jonathan?

 

[Curly green finger's]

When were they reared? If last year, too early unless these colonies are boiling over and stinging en mass. If that's the case just nip and unite. If 2019, you have had a year to assess good or bad so if you feel their temperament doesn't meet criteria, nip and unite.
How many queens are you rearing from and have they proven their worth over at least two seasons? One season really isn't enough IMO but I will make exceptions. In the case where the queen has proved exceptional for two or three seasons and her daughters and grand daughters are following suit, I would have no problem with using the youngest. We have three queens who fit this category with up to four generations of offspring queens. Two of these fourth generation queens are on the cards as possibilities this year. One of them was the result of an apiary vicinty mating at the end of August last year. Queen seen and BIAS on September 15th, they are looking well and still have stores, gorgeous little black bees.
I'm hoping the old girls are still around, especially 'Lagertha'. She was the first to reach 'exceptional' status and has maintained those high marks, producing over a hundred pounds of honey last year in her fourth season and a colony that never seems to stop flying.
I will shed a tear when she goes

Nucs are from last year and two colonys from the previous.
All are volcanoes.
The nucs Steve are huge with 4/frames of solid brood and have had extentions put on I will assess the nucs by giving them a bit more of a chance, space and stores.
But the two older colonys which are both in three boxes super, brood, super are goners they were borderline last year.

Another thing I've not known colonys to have 4 frames of solid brood this time of year.
One of the mentorees colonys which they bought as a single brood last year from me are booming with a super added now already in a view to either Demarree or go double brood.

 

[Swarm]

Doesn't surprise me, I had a message this afternoon, colony with six brood combs and building wild comb. Sign of a good year perhaps?
Only once had bees boiling out and stinging, orange things, they died. Sounds like yours on borrowed time have run out of time. I would use another mating site as well.
Assess your stock queens and only raise from the very best. Be very honest as well, we have eight potentials this year but only three of those are definites at the moment.
Only one that potentially has to meet her maker, a swarm that turned up in an apple tree at the farm. I didn't think it was ours at the time, it spent winter in a double nuc and seemed overly eager to pile out, even when I was just hefting them. I'll see how they perform tomorrow.

 

[Swarm]

Is she yours or from Jonathan?

Lagertha is a four year old, one of Jon's. The other two are our own three year old queens, none of them are related, however one of them has three daughters raised last year as she was another gem. You saw that colony in my video, brood here, half there and four supers in the corner, queen split to a nuc, lovely quiet bees, no smoke required.
Excellent results from this mating site