14 by 12 s or just lots of supers?

[Queen Brenda]

Just been to the Nat. Honey Show all geared up to spend squillions on 3 new 14/12s, frames, foundation etc to replace our current arrangement of brood and a half. I wanted to change to make inspections easier .

When we got chatting, the nice man dissuaded us from all that expense and asked why we didn't just add a QE to the brood box and lots of supers above it so the workers had as much room as they want and the queen can be confined to the brood box to do her stuff. It is the whole colony that needs the space to try to avoid a swarm due to lack of space, after all. Then we will only have the BB to inspect for signs of trouble.

Why didn't I think of this and what do others think? Why brood and a half?

 

[Moggett]

Why don't you just buy converter boxes to turn your standard nationals deeps into 14x12? Keeps the existing BBs in use and still frees up the supers.

 

[itma]

... asked why we didn't just add a QE to the brood box and lots of supers above it so the workers had as much room as they want and the queen can be confined to the brood box to do her stuff. It is the whole colony that needs the space to try to avoid a swarm due to lack of space, after all.

Well, "Up to a point, Lord Copper".

It is largely about brood box space. Nowadays most British bees seem to need more space for brood (never mind anything else) than there is in a single DN. (Some Black Bee folk claim there's can be happy in a little box.)
And if Q runs out of room to lay, she'll be off with a swarm pretty soon - regardless of how many empty supers there might be above the QX.


/// Oh and Maisemore's type rather than Thorne's type of 14x12 converter eke. Under, not over. Much easier all round.

 

[little_john]

I'm with itma on this.

Until this year I've been pretty scornful of 14x12 as being excessively large - but I now have 3 new bloodlines - 2 from imported queens (AMM's from Ireland) and 1 from an excellent local swarm (touch of serendipity there) which are uber-prolific and outgrowing their National brood boxes fast - so they're destined for 14x12's next year.

All my others are on bog standard deeps.

So - it very much depends on colony size.

LJ

 

[Erichalfbee]

I started out with standard Nationals but kept them just for the one season graduating happily to top bee space 14 x 12 .

 

[MuswellMetro]

The argument about the small size of the National Brood 14x8 frame and hence national brood box and smaller WBC brood box was started by simmons in the 1890's and he went to invent the larger commercial 16x10 small lug frame and hive, more recently the EXTRA DEEP National or JUMBO 14x12 has come to the fore

Other hives formats used in the rest of the world are more the size of the 14x12 or 16x10 than the 14x8 national

 

[enrico]

Or.....use what you have and a demaree method of swarm control!
E

 

[MuswellMetro]

my grandfather used 14x12 hives and his pagden swarm control hives were vertical pagdens using just two supers with the queen+ brood 14x12 frame poking a bit into the floor, He only carried split boards in his van and just used the supers of the apiary stack

so you could use supers as a one size box system with or without 14x12frames

He also used to put swarms onto a super of foundation,,then QE, Then another super of foundation on top His view was "might as well get some usable comb drawn before combining them"

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I started with 14 x 12 after reading a lot and thinking about what I picked up on the Forum. I next bought a standard national for the first hive on Manchester Cathedral roof. I was then inveigled into working with WBCs elsewhere.

For me, the 14 x 12 is the clear winner. It's best for the bees and easiest for the beekeeper. The brood box is large enough for both the brood in the height of the season, and for sufficient stores for the winter.

The only down size is the weight of a full 14 x 12 bb if you have to move it for any reason - but a bit of help gets round this.

I'd never go back to a standard bb - nor, for preference, would I go near a WBC hive.

Dusty

 

[BeeJayBee]

Why brood and a half?

There's a signature that says, "Brood and a half is never the answer". I can't remember whose it is.

I'd agree with what the others have already said. Standard national is too small to stop most colonies getting the urge to swarm early due to lack of laying space. It's also easier on (most) beekeepers to use one large box than to use one and a half boxes and two frame sizes for brood.

The larger brood area might be due to imports and/or because many new beekeepers are advised to buy Carniolans from dealers because they're reputed to be calm, but these colonies then go on to swarm early the next year and continue to top up the local gene pool with a more fecund variety of bee.

But that (^^^ above) wouldn't explain what MM has said about the historical increase in size of national brood box over a hundred years ago, nor would it explain the way some are absolutely dogmatic about telling new beekeepers to get a standard national plus Carniolans.

If you really do need to move a large brood box on your own it's easy enough to take out the frames full, or mostly full, of stores and put them in a nuc or something for a little while, move the box and then replace the frames.

 

[REDWOOD]

I run 14x12 and agree with above, I like the 5 frame nucs for over wintering, however bee will swarm no matter what box they are in if not managed properly.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Just been to the Nat. Honey Show all geared up to spend squillions on 3 new 14/12s, frames, foundation etc to replace our current arrangement of brood and a half. I wanted to change to make inspections easier .

When we got chatting, the nice man dissuaded us from all that expense and asked why we didn't just add a QE to the brood box and lots of supers above it so the workers had as much room as they want and the queen can be confined to the brood box to do her stuff. It is the whole colony that needs the space to try to avoid a swarm due to lack of space, after all. Then we will only have the BB to inspect for signs of trouble.

Why didn't I think of this and what do others think? Why brood and a half?

Does the nice man actually keep thriving colonies of productive bees?

 

[Bosleeu]

I agree with everyone else that says a Standard National box is not big enough for most queens. I had a queen this year that laid three Medium Langstroth boxes end to end and top to bottom.

If you want to move from brood and a half consider 12x14, double brood or Commercial, with 12x14 probably the most popular choice. Personally I prefer double brood.

 

[itma]

There's a signature that says, "Brood and a half is never the answer". I can't remember whose it is.

Dan B

The larger brood area might be due to imports and/or because many new beekeepers are advised to buy Carniolans from dealers because they're reputed to be calm, but these colonies then go on to swarm early the next year and continue to top up the local gene pool with a more fecund variety of bee.

But that (^^^ above) wouldn't explain what MM has said about the historical increase in size of national brood box over a hundred years ago, nor would it explain the way some are absolutely dogmatic about telling new beekeepers to get a standard national plus Carniolans.

"Isle of Wight" Disease, just over 100 years ago, led to very very large scale importation of bees into the UK from all over Europe … Italians, Carnies, whatever - contributing genes that produce larger colonies than the "swamped" residual native Black bees. Hence the modern-day British mongrels need more brood space than the native bees of 100 years ago.

As for Carnies in single-brood nationals, such advice (and there is plenty more like it) must be motivated either by sadism, schadenfreude or the desire to 'prove' to the beginner just how difficult beekeeping is (and therefore how wonderfully skilled and superior the advisor is).

 

[REDWOOD]

BA noticed that the British hive was not big enough for his queens, hence the birth of the Buckfast hive

 

[little_john]

[...] the modern-day British mongrels need more brood space than the native bees of 100 years ago.

Well that's a persuasive explanation, sure - but I've just imported a couple of AMM queens (Galtee etc) from Ireland which are supposedly the sort of stock which existed over here 100 years ago, and they've taken-off big-time.
When I mentioned this to the breeder, he said "you ain't seen nothing yet - just wait until next year when they've become established !". And when I queried this, with the "one National Brood box is enough for AMM, as they're such a frugal bee" mantra - he commented that that's one of the biggest myths floating around, and that good quality AMM's are very prolific indeed.

Gilberdyke John: Does the nice man actually keep thriving colonies of productive bees?

Maybe he keeps cr@p bees like wot I used to have - with dwarf queens which used to walk through a Q/X without touching the sides ...

LJ

 

[itma]

… And when I queried this, with the "one National Brood box is enough for AMM, as they're such a frugal bee" mantra - he commented that that's one of the biggest myths floating around, and that good quality AMM's are very prolific indeed.

My mongrels are happy taking advantage of their 14x12s.
But there are a few on here who might take issue with that statement!

 

[Apple]

Some Black Bee folk claim there's can be happy in a little box.

Mine ( in WBC hives) go double brood before the end of April!

I experimented with giant brood frames to find colonies moved up and not out, leaving outer frames untouched and even undrawn.

Eventually gave all the 14 x 12 frames and foundation to my sister who has bees that seem to need lots of space and a beekeeper who has has a strong back.

Each to their own, but I need to look after my spine!



James

 

[Queen Brenda]

Thanks for all the replies. Wot a can of worms but the consensus is that my queens will easily fill an ordinary brood box.

Yes, the nice man has 1200 hives but, crucially, lets them swarm whenever they want and doesn't inspect. He leaves empty hives around and they just go in there. However, he did say that a queen isn't going to fill up a whole brood box in a 'hundred years'. As long as I give the rest of them space, that is what matters. We thought he was nice because he talked us out of spending all that money, with him....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, the nice man has 1200 hives but, crucially, lets them swarm whenever they want and doesn't inspect. He leaves empty hives around

Oh dear.............