Re-queening nasty-------- hive

JonnyPicklechin · Apr 22, 2019

I have two x 5 frame NUC splits from AS that have been "simmering" on the back burner" for 3 weeks or so. Both have decent known, calm queens.

If I squish a suspected nasty-------- queen and requeen with one of these, can I combine with a shake of bees and then caged queen? Or will the air freshener route work?

The nasty hive is brood and a half on a single super.

I have such a problem with moving hives 3 miles away, I am forced to try this first.

enrico · Apr 22, 2019

This is one of the rare situations I would suggest newspaper. If you spray air freshener into an aggressive hive it might not help and if they kill the queen for any reason you are headed for trouble. I would get a sheet of newspaper and put numerous pin pricks in it. I would then add the queen right colony on top. If it means putting them in a full size box first then that should be no problem. I would remove the super first with a clearer board and add it back when all is right. I know that is a faff but that is what I would do in your circumstances. See who else has ideas first!
E

Hachi · Apr 23, 2019

enrico said:
This is one of the rare situations I would suggest newspaper. If you spray air freshener into an aggressive hive it might not help and if they kill the queen for any reason you are headed for trouble. I would get a sheet of newspaper and put numerous pin pricks in it. I would then add the queen right colony on top. If it means putting them in a full size box first then that should be no problem. I would remove the super first with a clearer board and add it back when all is right. I know that is a faff but that is what I would do in your circumstances. See who else has ideas first!
E

Can't think of a better way

JonnyPicklechin · Apr 23, 2019

Hachi said:
Can't think of a better way

Thanks again you two. What do you think of this:

1. I have closed off the nasty hive last night. I only closed the one and took BF's advice. I am waiting until things warm up to see what difference it has made to the ambience.
2. Assuming this is the only real problem hive, I move it (still closed) about 20 feet away to the other side of the garden.
3. In the site of the original hive I place a new box with the frames from the calm NUCed queen.
4. I open the old relocated nasty hive and flying bees over the course of hours will return to the original site with a new hive and frames.
5. This will have the effect of introducing slowly the new queen to the the old flying bees.
6. The nasty hive now becomes easier to inspect to find the queen and kill her. I could then requeen this one again and return or keep where the new location is and watch if it calms things down.

Questions:
* Do the nasty flying bees happily return and accept the new queen and colony at the old site? No problem with queen balling etc?
* Can I return the box with old bees on a reunite today or some days later (with newspaper etc as in earlier posts) so that I now have good sized hive (I dont want new locations and more hives)?

Waddya think?

jeff33 · Apr 23, 2019

I would also put a QX above the newspaper to ensure the queen doesn't venture into the nasty part of the hive for a few days.

Sorry, just read your plan of action. Iam not to sure putting a queen right nuc on the old site will be the best. Bees inside will think they are attacked and your nasty flyers may get more confused and potentially kill that queen?

I would put an empty box with frames to keep the flyers there. Go through the old hive which should only have nurse bees, kill the queen, put hive back on old site after removing the empty box, prepare hive for uniting with nuc this evening as Enrico suggested and leave alone for the day. Unite tonight.

If they are that bad you could even add a frame of open brood in the empty box before you do the manipulation and once all the flyers have returned to the old site they will try to raise a queen out of the frame of open brood. Leave it for the day, lock them in tonight and take the hive away to a different location. Go back in 3 for days, destroy queen cells and leave them dwindle.. It looks bad but at least you are uniting a nuc with only nurse bees which may accept a queen better.

Murox · Apr 23, 2019

Tend to agree with Jeff33. Your plan could end up with nasty bees dominating your good tempered nucleus. I am guessing your problem is moving a hive 3 miles+ away to a second location. Bleed off the flyers. Kill the Q. Save the nurse bees and brood, but you will still have the potential of nasty bees until they have all died off and new Q brood dominate. Short of exterminating the colony, whatever you do will be a gamble I think.

Not wishing to rub it in or be hurtful; urban keepers really do need a second location as a back up. ~So do well all really~

JonnyPicklechin · Apr 23, 2019

I actually like the idea of the flyer capture and the brood frame. Capturing them in a single brood box and the sealing and hoiking them off to a quiet place in the country until they dissipate is a good idea (id visit for the QCs and then the brood retrieval). My problem is location and transport. One box is quite easy to sort and then transport tomorrow. With this you get the requeen and a quick answer to a volume of nasty flyers.

I'm about to make a final ping inspection in the apiary ,,,so far it seems the garden is completely calm with them locked up so its just the one hive.

PS A caught swarm just arrived in a bait hive from one of my other colonies (known entity). Could that be useful in these manipulations?

jeff33 · Apr 23, 2019

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your apiary sounds like Londonderry in full riot

If you are going to take the flyers away and keep them entertained with a frame of brood, go back in 7 days, remove the frame, destroy every single queen cell and replace with another frame of open brood to keep them happy. Re-check 2-3 times the older frame of brood to make sure that you haven't missed a queen cell and put it in another hive. Repeat every 8 days until your hive has dwindled.

Adding frame of open brood will make them think they can raise a queen. If you make them hopelessly queenless they might be even more evil.

B+. · Apr 23, 2019

jeff33 said:
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your apiary sounds like Londonderry in full riot

If you are going to take the flyers away and keep them entertained with a frame of brood, go back in 7 days, remove the frame, destroy every single queen cell and replace with another frame of open brood to keep them happy. Re-check 2-3 times the older frame of brood to make sure that you haven't missed a queen cell and put it in another hive. Repeat every 8 days until your hive has dwindled.

Adding frame of open brood will make them think they can raise a queen. If you make them hopelessly queenless they might be even more evil.

The method is shown here if you prefer to see it done

Poly Hive · Apr 23, 2019

Actually and oddly my experience is that once the bad queen is removed and a good one introduced the temperament changes which suggests strongly it's a queen pheromone issue not the genes of the bees themselves.

I have seen this several times most notably last season when the hive from hell became ***** cats in three days flat.

PH

enrico · Apr 23, 2019

I agree with Poly. It is the queen, things will change!
E

JonnyPicklechin · Apr 23, 2019

Current situation I have moved the hive, its about 30 feet away and over a wall.

I have opened to just a bee space and flyers are taking two choices. The new brood box with frame of OB and new frames ....or me. Absolutely pelted. the builders across the way have been done and someone on the street over the side of the house...

Ive decided to open up more at 6pm when one would hope the local kids are back in doors, or at least not wandering past our house, and with 2 hours of light left. That should limit ferocity and get the majority of flyers back to the box before I seal it up. I can then take it away tomorrow. I wondered if beek ethics allows me to just shake them out 10 miles away? Will they find new homes? OK I lose a bunch of flyers but they have been such b***tards maybe disbursement and a new life is best? As ever, I am happy to be schooled on this point.

Back at Pearly Harbour, I will find the queen in the morning and squish her. I can then attempt the combine: (Old) Mean box below the perforated paper, NUC with laying queen above.

Sound OK?

Murox · Apr 23, 2019

Forget about the 'shoulds', 'oughts' and "if I were yous". You are doing great in the face of a tempest. Maybe consider protecting your nice queen in a push in cage just in case.

enrico · Apr 23, 2019

Honestly, in your situation, I would push a tray of petrol in the entrance and seal them up quickly. The fumes will kill them. I have my tin hat on and will probably need it!

Beefriendly · Apr 23, 2019

Poly Hive said:
Actually and oddly my experience is that once the bad queen is removed and a good one introduced the temperament changes which suggests strongly it's a queen pheromone issue not the genes of the bees themselves.

Sometimes yes.
In my experience it can be both. Changing queen can result in an almost overnight change in temperament of bees in some cases
But not always.
I have re-queened many "bad" hives where the badness has remained until the original "bad" bees have died out...about 7-8 weeks from re-queening. Suggesting that in some instances the genetics dominates over any queen pheromone.
It's not black and white.

jeff33 · Apr 23, 2019

Enrico's suggestion is the extreme but in your case with no other site to move this hive to and no guarantee that re-queening will work miracles overnight, it might be worth considering. You don't want few more weeks of hell and neighbours being pelted by your kamikaze psychotic bees. Best way to be out of everyone's Xmas cards list!!

Curly green fingers · Apr 23, 2019

JonnyPicklechin said:
Current situation I have moved the hive, its about 30 feet away and over a wall.

I have opened to just a bee space and flyers are taking two choices. The new brood box with frame of OB and new frames ....or me. Absolutely pelted. the builders across the way have been done and someone on the street over the side of the house...

Ive decided to open up more at 6pm when one would hope the local kids are back in doors, or at least not wandering past our house, and with 2 hours of light left. That should limit ferocity and get the majority of flyers back to the box before I seal it up. I can then take it away tomorrow. I wondered if beek ethics allows me to just shake them out 10 miles away? Will they find new homes? OK I lose a bunch of flyers but they have been such b***tards maybe disbursement and a new life is best? As ever, I am happy to be schooled on this point.

Back at Pearly Harbour, I will find the queen in the morning and squish her. I can then attempt the combine: (Old) Mean box below the perforated paper, NUC with laying queen above.

Sound OK?

As murox has said I would protect your nuc queen incase she gets killed .
Is there no one near you that can help bee keeping association member,forum member .
If I was nearer I would take them of your hands.

JonnyPicklechin · Apr 24, 2019

Poly Hive said:
Actually and oddly my experience is that once the bad queen is removed and a good one introduced the temperament changes which suggests strongly it's a queen pheromone issue not the genes of the bees themselves.

I have seen this several times most notably last season when the hive from hell became ***** cats in three days flat.

PH

Logic says this must be in play in my case. Hive recently swarmed. Pre-swarm, ***** cats, post VQ hell spawn. Unless behaviour isn't queen related (weather, nearby paint/creosote, sirius rising etc), reasoning says it cannot be bad genes.

Anyway, an update:

Took large bled off flying brigade off into the country far from the madding crowd with OB frame plus others.
Returned to Hacksaw Ridge to find a considerably calmer environment but still uncomfortable ping activity. Second "flyer bleed" in play.
Into much easier original hive, found Queen.....ready to squish...and she flies off! Hurrah for the bumbling bee keeper...
Started raining so packaged em up and will wait for tomorrow to find her again.

Will a virgin still prevail over a caged mated queen if they are in the same colony?

jeff33 · Apr 24, 2019

You have done well in getting the hive manageable.
Not sure what you mean by will prevail though. What is sure is that you do not want to have any other queen virgin or not in a hive when you introduce a mated queen, even a nuc. You must kill this one and if you can't find her shake every frame off bees through a QX putting an empty bb over.

JonnyPicklechin · Apr 24, 2019

jeff33 said:
You have done well in getting the hive manageable.
Not sure what you mean by will prevail though. What is sure is that you do not want to have any other queen virgin or not in a hive when you introduce a mated queen, even a nuc. You must kill this one and if you can't find her shake every frame off bees through a QX putting an empty bb over.

Weather wasn't great. Will move another flyer bleed in the morning and go and find her. Those two offloads have really helped ambience and ease of searching the brood boxes.

I've asked more folks if they'll take the hive so the requeening can take place in safe quarters but no dice. Onward!

PS I can pull the "petrol" rip cord but so far damage is minimal even though we were at code red so I remain committed to saving this hive with some good old fashioned TLC.

Note to beginners, if you have 48 hours, move the hive and make the flyer bleed to a NUC which is easy to transport. House the flyers until later in a remote place. If you are to make a sacrifice do it with these and shake em out if you dont want to keep the NUC in a dingly dell. Repeat next day.

Re-queening nasty-------- hive

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